Funerals & honor

[Unidian]

Doesn't matter to me, I don't want anything to do with that. I'd rather be considered the lowest sea slug, mired in slug-consciousness. Call me Sluggo. If that sort of thing is what David's "enlightenment" is all about, count me not only out (like I already was), but totally lost and unreachable for all eternity.

Unacceptable. Just unacceptable. Go ahead and talk about how attached and delusional I am. This kind of thing makes delusion look good.

How many of your grandparents does David want to kill? Do any of you care?

[Nick]

I too was recently thinking about what I want to happen to my body upon my death. I was thinking something along the lines of what Mathis said. Funerals, weddings, birthdays, and any other mindless celebrations like christmas and easter are thoroughly evil.

[Dan Rowden]

Donation to science seems like the perfect solution to me. I could finally get to test out the brain in a vat notion....

[Jamesh]

No, I don't need to re-learn anything at all as my so-called "aims" are not my overriding concern (wherein you mean the aim of changing people). The chips can fall where they may on that one. My main aim concerns myself.

Ok, fair enough. Your aim is thus no better than those who attend, but no big deal, at the individual level I don't care if people attend or not - no concern of mine. I know I will atend my families funerals though.

For the most part my second post was arguing generally about the totality of all the herd things you folks are against. Sue's post irritated me - as they always do - way to ascetic, dead of any life.

[Carl G]

I personally don't have much use for funerals. I don't plan to have one for myself, and I certainly prefer to not attend them. However, and this goes for all holidays, if social circumstances dictate that it would be better for me to participate, I go. Not a problem. Of course, I regularly maneuver so that this is the case as little as possible. And while involved I practice consciousness and non-attachment.

Michio Kuchi, the founder of the macrobiotic diet held that one can eat non-macrobiotic foods as a guest in someone's house, without harm, and that there is, in fact, potential for worse if one does not. I have found this works for other things, too.

This way, I can flow easily throughout society, and maintain my autonomy at the same time.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Do you know how often children are forced to attend funerals? No harm there, eh?

I worked with children whose parents or siblings had died, and they all wanted to go to the funerals. Some were not allowed to go, and that was very hurtful to them. If a child (or an adult) does not want to go to a funeral, he should not be forced (although I never encountered that), as that would also be hurtful, but by and large, most children want to go to funerals.

[sue hindmarsh]

Dan wrote:

Sue: Funerals are another of the insane worldly practices (weddings, christenings, birthdays, Christmas, etc) that I refuse to participate in.

Weddings and funerals are essentially the same - either way, someone had died.

Yes - every moment of the day people die and are reborn. At funerals, the dead are continuously dug up to keep the audience amused. At weddings, the man's life is sacrificed to the woman, then he is reincarnated as her 'husband', and goes on to live a soulless life.

.

[ExpectantlyIronic]

Dan,

Do you know how often children are forced to attend funerals?

I really don't see the harm in this. Funerals are a great place to see what the actual effects of death are. That seems like it would be a useful thing for a child to learn.

Do you know how often even adults are forced to attend funerals via social pressure? That's a pretty potent force even for a fairly strong willed person.

Social pressure is what happens when you live in a society. Do you also think it a terrible thing that your friends might potentially invite you out for a few drinks?

And people shoring up each other's delusions isn't harmful?

What delusions? If your talking about religious stuff, then I'll remind you that there are secular funerals.



Nick,

Funerals, weddings, birthdays, and any other mindless celebrations like christmas and easter are thoroughly evil.

Celebration is evil? I'm suddenly imagining someone bitterly sitting in a room muttering about how they hate "laughter and fun". It's quite funny, but I can't imagine that you're some cartoonish character from a bad movie. Maybe you could explain such thoughts?

[David Quinn]

Unidian wrote:

Doesn't matter to me, I don't want anything to do with that. I'd rather be considered the lowest sea slug, mired in slug-consciousness. Call me Sluggo. If that sort of thing is what David's "enlightenment" is all about, count me not only out (like I already was), but totally lost and unreachable for all eternity.

Unacceptable. Just unacceptable. Go ahead and talk about how attached and delusional I am. This kind of thing makes delusion look good.

How many of your grandparents does David want to kill? Do any of you care?

What's happened to that boast you were making about how you had given up all concepts and therefore all attachments? Have you, like Hades, flushed all that lofty talk down the gurgler?

Chuang Tzu had some interesting things to say on this matter:

A little while ago, when I went in to mourn the death of Lao Tan, I found old men weeping for him as though they were weeping for a son, and young men weeping for him as though they were weeping for a mother. To have gathered a group like that, he must have done something to make them weep for him, even though he didn't ask them to weep. This is to hide from Heaven, to turn your back on the true state of affairs and forget what you were born with. In the old days, this was called the crime of hiding from Heaven.


Life, death, preservation, loss, failure, success, poverty, riches, worthiness, unworthiness, slander, fame, hunger, thirst, cold, heat ‑ these are the alternations of the world, the workings of fate. Day and night they change place before us and wisdom cannot spy out their source. Therefore, they should not be enough to destroy your harmony. If you can harmonize and delight in them, master them and never be at a loss for joy, if you can do this day and night without break and make it be spring with everything, mingling with all and creating the moment within your own mind ‑ this is what I call being whole in power.


To be filial out of respect is easy; to be filial out of love is hard. To be filial out of love is easy; to forget parents is hard. To forget parents is easy; to make parents forget you is hard. To make parents forget you is easy; to forget the whole world is hard. To forget the whole world is easy; to make the whole world forget you is hard.


You should find the same joy in one condition as you would in any other and thereby be free of care. But here you are, when certain things take their leave, you cease to be joyful.

Though you might experience joy on occasion, it will always be fated for destruction. Therefore, it is said: "Those who destroy themselves in things and lose their inborn nature in the vulgar may be called the upside‑down people."

-

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

At weddings, the man's life is sacrificed to the woman,

Don't you have that backwards? "I now pronounce you man and wife" The man was a man before and after marriage; the woman was a woman before marriage and a wife after marriage.

Well, how about science?

This article indicates that marriage helps men live longer (not women, just men).

And this article actually states that while married men live linger than single men, married women live shorter lives than single women. Women really do, literally, give their lives to their husbands.

[David Quinn]

Expectantly Ironic wrote:

Nick: Funerals, weddings, birthdays, and any other mindless celebrations like christmas and easter are thoroughly evil.

EI: Celebration is evil? I'm suddenly imagining someone bitterly sitting in a room muttering about how they hate "laughter and fun".

He did say "mindless celebration". I would certainly class the above things as celebrations of mindlessness. And what's worse, they, along with the adult world generally, tend to sap all joy and laughter from life.

Those with an inner life don't need contrived rituals to experience the joy of life. These rituals are an expression of a lack an inner life.

-

[Dan Rowden]

Dan,

Do you know how often children are forced to attend funerals?

I really don't see the harm in this. Funerals are a great place to see what the actual effects of death are. That seems like it would be a useful thing for a child to learn.

It could be if, a) the child was somewhat exceptional or b) the adults were capable of teaching them something meaningful. But most often funerals are just terrifying and confusing for kids. Elizabeth says most kids actually want to go to funerals. That may be so the first time (because they don't know what it means or entails) but I wonder how many of them want a repeat performance? But I agree that in theory they could be valuable as a teaching tool, if only in the sense of the child learning how fucked up people are.

Do you know how often even adults are forced to attend funerals via social pressure? That's a pretty potent force even for a fairly strong willed person.

Social pressure is what happens when you live in a society.

It's what happens when you live in a deluded, herd driven society.

Do you also think it a terrible thing that your friends might potentially invite you out for a few drinks?

That's not even remotely equivalent (unless they get all indignant on your arse for not going).

And people shoring up each other's delusions isn't harmful?

What delusions? If your talking about religious stuff, then I'll remind you that there are secular funerals.

Secular funerals have their religious dimension. The delusions I'm talking about are those related to life and death, egotistical attachment, mendacity, herdliness, ritulaism (which is mindless by definition) and so forth. It's not just about God and heaven and blather such as that.

[Unidian]

You weren't talking about Chuang-Tzu's views on non-attachment and the like, David. You were talking about putting people to death. That's a problem. A big one. Such statements are not consistent with basic sanity.

Can you find in the authentic Buddhist, Zen, or Taoist traditions any text which advocates putting people to death? I don't think you can, at least not without twisting the meaning of something or resorting to wartime propaganda.

No spiritual tradition advocates putting its elders to death, not even lunatic fundamentalist Islam. That isn't spirituality, it's Nazism. I hate to play the Hitler card, but hey, if the shoe fits - and it does, in a big way. Those of you reading this thread should really avail yourselves of the opportunity to publicly distance yourselves from this lunacy. I sure would (and did).

[Nick]

Celebration is evil? I'm suddenly imagining someone bitterly sitting in a room muttering about how they hate "laughter and fun". It's quite funny, but I can't imagine that you're some cartoonish character from a bad movie. Maybe you could explain such thoughts?

What's wrong with celebrations? You mean what's wrong with competely turning your back on God so one can enter some irrational dream world? Well, just about everything is wrong with it if you value truth, wisdom, and honesty even a little bit. It's all glorified masturbation. Absolutely disturbing and disgusting.

[Philosophaster]

It's what happens when you live in a deluded, herd driven society.

Any pressure from other people to act one way or another is "social pressure." Laws and their enforcement are social pressure. The pressure of being put to death unless you meet somebody's definition of "enlightenment" before you reach 70 is social pressure.

Or were you not being serious when you endorsed that?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Dan,

Do you know how often children are forced to attend funerals?

I really don't see the harm in this. Funerals are a great place to see what the actual effects of death are. That seems like it would be a useful thing for a child to learn.

It could be if, a) the child was somewhat exceptional or b) the adults were capable of teaching them something meaningful. But most often funerals are just terrifying and confusing for kids. Elizabeth says most kids actually want to go to funerals. That may be so the first time (because they don't know what it means or entails) but I wonder how many of them want a repeat performance?

Okay, I worked with one kid who lost his brother, then within a year, he lost his sister. He wanted to go to both funerals, and he did, and that was fine.

I agree that it's a good idea to rationally talk to kids about funerals and death, but most adults can't talk rationally about this stuff - so no wonder kids tend to grow up all confused about death and become more adults who are unable to talk about it.

[Shahrazad]

I go to funerals of (1) people I knew and loved in life, or of (2)people that were very close to someone I knew and loved. I do (2) for myself, not the dead. It helps me get some closure, and to face emotionally what I already intellectually know -- that they are gone.

One silly consequence of me not going to such funerals and seeing the dead body is to have recurrent dreams of this person still being alive.

I do (2) out of respect for the person I know, to let them know that I am sorry for their loss and available if support is needed.

I don't ever go to funerals out of a sense of duty. I just go to the ones I want to.

[Dan Rowden]

It's what happens when you live in a deluded, herd driven society.

Any pressure from other people to act one way or another is "social pressure." Laws and their enforcement are social pressure.

They are pragmatic realities that one simply accepts. I don't think it's a very good similie (unless perhaps you're an anarchist who doesn't believe in laws, and I don't believe such a person exists anyway.)

The pressure of being put to death unless you meet somebody's definition of "enlightenment" before you reach 70 is social pressure.

Well yes, that would indeed constitute social pressure, unless one happened to agree with the principle.

Or were you not being serious when you endorsed that?

I endorsed it? I must have Dave's mum's dementia because I don't recall doing any such thing. I frankly didn't even take it seriously. You guys can knock yourselves out getting all moral over it but for me it's too silly an idea to warrant that kind of reaction.

[Philosophaster]

Well, let's hear from the man himself, then.

David:

Were you offering the idea of executing unenlightened old people in seriousness? Do you think it is a good idea?

[ExpectantlyIronic]

David,

Those with an inner life don't need contrived rituals to experience the joy of life. These rituals are an expression of a lack an inner life.

One might not need contrived rituals, but they sure can be a heck of a lot of fun sometimes. At least to me.


Dan,

It's what happens when you live in a deluded, herd driven society.

What qualities disqualify you from the herd? Your particular values, the fact you imagine yourself to have thought certain things out more, some gnostic sort-of truth you happen to possess, or something else entirely? Regardless, it seems that your argument is one against folks pressuring others into doing stuff that really doesn't matter, rather then an argument against funerals.

The delusions I'm talking about are those related to life and death, egotistical attachment, mendacity, herdliness, ritulaism (which is mindless by definition) and so forth.

Have you ever thought that others might just have different values then you? Just because one doesn't share your opinion doesn't make them delusional.


Nick,

You mean what's wrong with competely turning your back on God so one can enter some irrational dream world?

Yeah. What's wrong with that? The fact that you use the terms "irrational" and "dream world" to describe such things doesn't automatically make them bad. Or maybe to you it does. When you say "God" do you mean an anthropomorphic God?

Well, just about everything is wrong with it if you value truth, wisdom, and honesty even a little bit. It's all glorified masturbation. Absolutely disturbing and disgusting.

I don't see masturbation as all that disturbing or disgusting. I imagine that we must just have very different outlooks on such things.

[Unidian]

Of course Quinn meant it. This "not taking it seriously" business is just spin and damage control to plant the groundwork for a claim that he was joking. But he clearly wasn't, as evidenced by the context and tone.

However, it's good to see you've distanced yourself from it to some extent, Dan.

[BMcGilly07]

SH: At weddings, the man's life is sacrificed to the woman
EI: Don't you have that backwards? "I now pronounce you man and wife" The man was a man before and after marriage; the woman was a woman before marriage and a wife after marriage.

The masculine psyche is free and complete in and of itself. The feminine psyche is incomplete, only finding her end through another. He is like a stalwart pillar of meaning, she like a craven ghost needing another for sustenance.

So it is that a man sacrifices himself in marriage.

We could speak of a compromise, but in reality there is no meeting of two disparate ends without one end winning and the other losing. In marriage, it is the man who loses. I think this is a genetic disposition, put in place so that man finds his end not in his spouse, but in the future that is his children's.

[Shahrazad]

Nat,

However, it's good to see you've distanced yourself from it to some extent, Dan.

Distanced? When did Dan advocate killing people for their age?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

SH: At weddings, the man's life is sacrificed to the woman
EI: Don't you have that backwards? "I now pronounce you man and wife" The man was a man before and after marriage; the woman was a woman before marriage and a wife after marriage.

The masculine psyche is free and complete in and of itself. The feminine psyche is incomplete, only finding her end through another. He is like a stalwart pillar of meaning, she like a craven ghost needing another for sustenance.

So it is that a man sacrifices himself in marriage.

We could speak of a compromise, but in reality there is no meeting of two disparate ends without one end winning and the other losing. In marriage, it is the man who loses. I think this is a genetic disposition, put in place so that man finds his end not in his spouse, but in the future that is his children's.

Did you click the links?

[Unidian]

Dan distanced himself from Quinn's statement, which he called "silly."

However, he did advocate it earlier in the thread (probably in a joking manner). He's called it "silly" now, though. It's a very tepid condemnation where decency would demand a crushing one, but it's better than nothing.