that's itChuang Tzu: Inner Chapters
Thus, failing they had no cause for regret; succeeding, no cause for self-satisfaction. And thus they could scale heights without trembling, enter water without becoming wet, and go through fire without feeling hot.
Are you saying that teachers and parents are purposely keeping this information – the “why†– from their students and children? If you are, why would they need to do that?The problem with most teachers and parents is that they emphasize obedience to and memorization of a structure without trying to illustrate the rationality, meaning and truth of not only the structures 'function' over periods of time, but also the rationality and meaning of why one is learning these 'stuctures' to begin with.
They are not feeling 'fear' and 'emotions' on purpose, and it is fear and emotion that are in control. You could say that they are purposely allowing fear/emotion to continue being the master. But then you could argue that they don't even know that emotion is the master. I would say that they don't even know that they don't know. They are not aware that they are not aware - perhaps they become aware of their own ignorance in brief moments - of which they recoil away in fear (and of course they remain unaware of that very fear)Are you saying that teachers and parents are purposely keeping this information – the “why†– from their students and children? If you are, why would they need to do that?
Exactly. In my original post I said:Sue: Or do you think it is more a case that they don’t know the “why†of anything much themselves. This sounds more likely, and would mean that they are as ignorant and gullible as their students and children. Yes?
They are not concerned with the rationality of the function due to either a lack of capacity or a fear of the consequences.
If they were concerned with the rationality of the function, rather than merely authoratively imposing a structure upon the minds of students and offspring (of which are regarded as the means to greater financial and status gain), then the teachers and parents would see themselves as the children and students that they truly are, and would hence learn a great deal from the children.
What chang-tsu seems to be saying here reminds me a bit of what Solway said in 'posion for the heart':Chuang Tzu: Inner Chapters
He who knows what is of God and who knows what is of Man has reached indeed the height (of wisdom). One who knows what is of God patterns his living after God. One who knows what is of Man may still use his knowledge of the known to develop his knowledge of the unknown, living till the end of his days and not perishing young. This is the fullness of knowledge. Herein, however, there is a flaw. Correct knowledge is dependent on objects, but the objects of knowledge are relative and uncertain (changing). How can one know that the natural is not really of man, and what is of man is not really natural? We must, moreover, have true men before we can have true knowledge.
But what is a true man? The true men of old did not override the weak, did not attain their ends by brute strength, and did not gather around them counsellors. Thus, failing they had no cause for regret; succeeding, no cause for self-satisfaction. And thus they could scale heights without trembling, enter water without becoming wet, and go through fire without feeling hot. That is the kind of knowledge which reaches to the depths of Tao.
I suppose carrying the fish could be seen as a metephor for putting on display the profoundity which one knows.
Masculine/Feminine
The spiritual man has power like no other. He must be so careful it doesn't run away with him. His wisdom lies in his absolute submission of strength to God. A bird carrying a fish is chased by all the other birds, until he lets go of the fish and becomes free again.
Thus his final action is feminine: but the ultimate feminine is a male.
After all that, I’m feeling “quite drained†trying to “stay with youâ€.They are not feeling 'fear' and 'emotions' on purpose, and it is fear and emotion that are in control. You could say that they are purposely allowing fear/emotion to continue being the master. But then you could argue that they don't even know that emotion is the master. I would say that they don't even know that they don't know. They are not aware that they are not aware - perhaps they become aware of their own ignorance in brief moments - of which they recoil away in fear (and of course they remain unaware of that very fear)Sue: Are you saying that teachers and parents are purposely keeping this information – the “why†– from their students and children? If you are, why would they need to do that?
That is why socrates was considered the wisest man during his time, because he was one of the few people who was aware of his own ignorance. You could say that this is because socrates had character, but then again, you could attribute his child-like strength to a lack of character, or maybe to a good character.
As with the mediocre person, that persons (bad) character is a defense against truth.
I'm guessing that being aware of ones own ignorance is (at least at first) painful or uncomfortable for people.
If it wasnt then I would think that everyone would be wise.
If you were to talk with one of these profesors or to a parent and if you were to try taking the conversation into a quite heavy and truthful place - - you would find the parent or teacher quite stricken with discomfort. If they managed to stay with you, you would find that they were quite drained by the conversation.
So, when people are mediocre, I think it is caused by wishful thinking. They hope that what they know is good enough.
People hope that they are more important and knowlegable than they really are. So, vanity has alot to do with it to....
One also tends to masochistically hope that their friends and collegues are more important, strong and knowledgable than they really are.
In my experience with friendship, I find it is a strange mixture between sadism and masochism. Your friend simultaneously wants to feel protected by your strength AND occasionally cut you down to a size of his liking. So he is simultaneioulsy over-estimating and under-estimating you. He is irrational.
If he sees you suffering or weak, instead of sympathy(not saying he should feel sympathy), he actually feels revulsion, fear, frusteration, insecurity, disdain......
You see, you were your friends asset (at least in his eyes). You are his means of attaining success. And so you better put on a smile and get back to work.
And so we all like to play pretend, otherwise, we would have no friends.
Each person is unwittingly dishonest, because unconsciously they know the suffering that they are in for if they wake up and act intelligently.
I’m not sure what ignorant adults would learn from ignorant children.Exactly. In my original post I said: If they were concerned with the rationality of the function, rather than merely authoratively imposing a structure upon the minds of students and offspring (of which are regarded as the means to greater financial and status gain), then the teachers and parents would see themselves as the children and students that they truly are, and would hence learn a great deal from the children.Sue: Or do you think it is more a case that they don’t know the “why†of anything much themselves. This sounds more likely, and would mean that they are as ignorant and gullible as their students and children. Yes?
From my observation, by the time most people reach 25 years of age they are already stuck in their ways. They’ve found happiness in a certain lifestyle, which they will more than likely spend the rest of their lives working to maintain.They are not concerned with the rationality of the function due to either a lack of capacity or a fear of the consequences.
Both this lack of capacity and fear are involuntary.
So, nobody is doing anything on purpose.
Somethings and people are just involuntarily bad, while others are better.
Don’t be too hard on yourself – you’re young – you’ve got plenty of time. I wouldn’t worry about “those to comeâ€; just focus on your own development.Some bad people like myself are lucky (seems strange to call it luck, it often feels like a curse) enough to have the strength to see myown badness and thus become better.
I may not have what it takes to live unconditionally free and supremely wise, but I will at least do my best to more thouroughly delineate the path for those to come.
I was delineating the path for those to come by providing a generalization for how things seem to work based on my experience. And I would think that working on your personal development AND providing an outline for what is truth go hand in hand.After all that, I’m feeling “quite drained†trying to “stay with youâ€.
You’ve mentioned so many topics in your work above that I’m really not sure what they all relate to, or what point you are trying to make.
Well, there is a difference between rushing and being excessive and extreme.I suggest you slow down a bit, and work on one or two ideas at a time. I know you’re keen, but there really isn’t any rush.
You missed the point. The adult would be on the road to wisdom if he aknowleged his ignorance.
Cory: In my original post I said: If they were concerned with the rationality of the function, rather than merely authoratively imposing a structure upon the minds of students and offspring (of which are regarded as the means to greater financial and status gain), then the teachers and parents would see themselves as the children and students that they truly are, and would hence learn a great deal from the children.
Sue: I’m not sure what ignorant adults would learn from ignorant children.
If my fellow human beings action was based on a desire for truth, then I would have to consider him a 'frienemy'.
Cory: If a friendship were based on truth you could hardly call it a friendship
Sky: what would you call it?