Here and Not Here

[Gretchen]

I want to start out by saying that I am not a philosophy student, but have begun reading, including Quinn’s piece. I am a middle-aged woman with a job, a house, a husband, and a dog. I am going to explain my existence the best way I can in a theory/concept of “Here and Not Here”.

Several years ago I began to become aware of the Here and Not Here. It can best be described that most people are grounded in the Here, including my husband. There are people in my personal life that are in the Not Here and can be counted on one hand. Two of these people are much older than me and have learned the balance between the two but cannot explain to me how to get there. Some of you, based on reading your posts and responses, are in the Not Here, Sapius being one of them (I think). However, those in the Not Here understand others in the Not Here but not necessarily each other’s experiences.

Several years ago, I became drawn into the Not Here and began dialogue with various people on the Internet about what I could not explain in an effort to gain a greater understanding of the unexplainable. That experience plus some uncontrollable events in the Here, at the time, landed me for a brief appearance, voluntarily, in a psych hospital. After two years of therapy and several thousands of various psych pills later, I became grounded once again in the Here. By the grace of God and my acupuncturist, I no longer take medication.

I got a new job and now, a year later, I’m finding myself being pulled back into the Not Here. It is a lonely, empty place. It is frightening in that there is hardly anyone to discuss it with that understands, and even then, the experience of that existence isn’t necessarily always the same.

So, to all you learned persons out there, where do I go from here? I refuse to go back to a hospital or a therapist and be grounded in the Here because I know that is only a temporary state. If you have experienced this and have found a balance, how did you do it?

[Nick]

One of my favorite quotes is "There is nothing to fear but fear itself". I think you might benefit from its wisdom. When you say "the here" and "the not here", it's not easy to understand exactly what you are describing. If you are getting brief states of mind where you are realizing the impermanance of things, and at the same time the infinite magnitude of nature, do not be affraid. "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me." Matthew 11:6 If you can better describe what it is you experience when you enter "the not here" I would probably be able to help you out more.

[sschaula]

Passthrough,

It seems like you think the Here is happy and healthy, yet it doesn't last...and that Not Here is lonely and empty. If good states and bad states come and go, why do you seek either?

It seems like you're saying the Not Here is your natural state of mind, and it takes some work to be grounded in the Here. But I want to ask you: how is a person ever "not here"? Everyone is here. You may be caught up in your thoughts and beliefs, and seem to have your head "up in the clouds", but you're always here.

No one is ever "there".

So I'd say your natural state is Here, and you only think that Not Here is your natural state of mind.

A few tips for getting your "feet on the ground" if your head is too "in the clouds". Go on a walk and pay attention to your feet hitting the ground. Have more meat in your diet. Pay attention to whatever you're doing, if you're driving a car for example. If you're doing nothing but sitting, pay attention to your breath at your nostrils. This is all basically like meditation as you go through your day...and these are safe meditations. Not ones that take you deep into your own mind. They just make your attention one pointed and "in the Now".

I think it's good to read David Quinn's book, as well. Try to see what he's saying in your own life. Using logic is grounding. It's a totally different type of thinking than having a stream of useless thoughts go through your mind.

Hope this helps you, Passthrough.

[unwise]

PT, I would encourage you to leave this sort of talk alone. If you have had psychological problems, philosophy is destabilizing and potentially dangerous. Stay comfortable in your skin by surrounding yourself with a good friend or two and hobbies that you enjoy. Stay grounded. Laugh. Have fun. Be normal.

That is my advice to you.

[Gretchen]

PT, I would encourage you to leave this sort of talk alone. If you have had psychological problems, philosophy is destabilizing and potentially dangerous. Stay comfortable in your skin by surrounding yourself with a good friend or two and hobbies that you enjoy.

I suppose I will have to explain a little further, but not too much, as I am not comfortable talking about my personal life on the Internet. My psychological problems were a result of a real life threatening situation because of my former job, a breach of trust or percieved breach of trust from someone that had the potential to embarrass me, and, at the time, very bad marital difficulties. Coupled with this inability to relate to most people (I will explain about this later), to say the very least, I was under a tremendous amount of strain. It is quite possible that turning to philosophy at this time was the catalyst that brought the breakdown.

I have never had psychological issues up until this time and I believe that it is more my body reacting to the situation. Further, I have no need for constant attention from other people and I do have many hobbies and projects, but it is a need to be around those from the Not Here that is difficult because there just aren't that many. My life is very structured and scheduled, so it is almost impossible to wander around seeking them out.

If you can better describe what it is you experience when you enter "the not here" I would probably be able to help you out more.

As I previously stated, I am middle-aged. I have always been different. People say that I am very intense and serious, always in my head. I don't relate well to "normal" people who seem to belong to what I define as "Here". I believe my daughter is going through this too because she says the same thing. I tell her to try to be "normal" and she asks what that is. I suppose I shouldn't preach something that I don't know the answer to myself.

I spoke with an older woman about it the other day, a retired teacher. She said she felt "different" for over 20 years. She did not know how she became balanced with the rest of the world (Here) but that Buddhism seemed to help bring her to terms with it all.

It seems like you think the Here is happy and healthy, yet it doesn't last...and that Not Here is lonely and empty. If good states and bad states come and go, why do you seek either?

I wish I could say it was that simple but it is not. The Not Here is not exactly unhappy - it can actually be happy, but it is very lonely and empty because there are so few people there. It is almost a spiritual kind of bond that allows you to find these people - like the retired teacher. I didn't know her at all, but the first time I met her I knew she was. I believe there are some here in this forum. I don't always agree with their philosophy, and so far, Quinn's is among those (but I have a long way to go before finishing his story and I'm sure I need to do a whole lot more studying before I can even raise questions) but they are there. Kelly Jones and another guy that I used to read here, Matt Gregory, are very there.

Further, my husband is in the Here, and he is always happy. The Here can be unhappy and unhealthy too. I wish I could explain this, but I don't know what it is to be able to explain. I was hoping someone would know what I meant by a shared experience.

Sapius said:

I know you will not be surprised. Actually, so do I at such things, may be a million times more strongly than you, I’m not inhuman so to speak, only that the sanity found in logic, which is also as strong, keeps emotions at bay, actually holding the “I” of the mind at an optimal balance, otherwise, insanity would be a hairs breath away. Ask the people who superficially know me in off-net life, they already have declared me an “alien”, taking my suggestions to what would help them cope with their daily life, as that which could only come from an “alien”, who has absolutely no idea of how a persons nature actually works.

I can’t say that I can give an example of what I mean to be what Sapius said, but the essence of what he said is there…in the Not Here. I, unlike Sapius, am having a hard time keeping those emotions in check because my grounding in logic is not so strong. Part of that may be due to being female ;-)

And Scott, that does sound like good advice, but it is hard for me to stop thinking. I am no longer on psych drugs, but I do take a Lunesta to stop the mind so I can sleep, plus some Chinese herbs. In fact, your suggestions are exactly what I do when I am well.

The problem is that I have been sick. I had surgery to take out a type of growth in my inner ear less than a year ago, part of which, bone had to be removed as well. This ear is very weak and fills with fluid causing severe vertigo attacks and migraine headaches. The acupuncturist healed me of them, but also went to China shortly thereafter for a little over a month. I became sick while she was gone. She is now treating me with strong Chinese herbs and acupuncture. I had another episode at the office the other day throwing up in the waste can, couldn't walk...pretty bad stuff. But she will get me through it again, it will just take time.

[sschaula]

Passthrough,

For your safety, keep in mind I'm not a doctor. Consult a physician before doing anything I say...

And Scott, that does sound like good advice, but it is hard for me to stop thinking.

Just so we're clear: thinking is good, but not being able to control the mechanism of thinking is bad. If it's hard for you to stop thinking, then that's something to work on if you so desire. Just do the things I said, and it'll help.

I am no longer on psych drugs, but I do take a Lunesta to stop the mind so I can sleep, plus some Chinese herbs. In fact, your suggestions are exactly what I do when I am well.

Taking sleeping pills is not a good idea. Or chinese herbs. These are just temporary solutions. What you need to do about sleeping is just let your body be awake when it wants to, and sleep when it wants to. It will gradually and naturally find its way back to a normal sleeping schedule. When you try to force it, you get insomnia and the like. At night, stay indoors, don't watch tv, and don't go online. You can read books and do something like work on a puzzle. Try to keep physical activity to a minimum. Get everything done in the day that needs to be done, and when it gets dark just relax. If you're passionate about something, nighttime is not the time to be brainstorming about it. If you don't sleep, you don't sleep.

In the daytime, if you get tired, take a nap and when you wake up continue with your day. Stay active during the day, and make sure to at least go on a good walk everyday. Going for a light jog (15 - 30 minutes) when your energy levels are high, you will find, helps the body get back into a natural sleep cycle.

Take my advice if you want. You will have to deal with some sleeplessness in the beginning, but if you stick it out, you'll become a very healthy person. Then once you're healthy, keep going to bed when it gets dark out and don't stay up later no matter what.

The problem is that I have been sick. I had surgery to take out a type of growth in my inner ear less than a year ago, part of which, bone had to be removed as well. This ear is very weak and fills with fluid causing severe vertigo attacks and migraine headaches. The acupuncturist healed me of them, but also went to China shortly thereafter for a little over a month. I became sick while she was gone. She is now treating me with strong Chinese herbs and acupuncture. I had another episode at the office the other day throwing up in the waste can, couldn't walk...pretty bad stuff. But she will get me through it again, it will just take time.

In my opinion, these things will disappear if you follow my advice.

Acupuncture deals with flows of energy in the body. If an energy flow is blocked, a needle is inserted on the blockage. This releases the blockage by stimulating the heat sensors of the tissues, which releases some sort of chemical which breaks down whatever was causing the blockage. At least that's how it seems to work for me. To put it simply: it melts away the tension.

But this doesn't fix the problem. Remember this saying: "the site is not the source"...which means the pain you're feeling in your hip may be caused by your foot (for example). The problem is always the overall state your body is in. Changing one tiny energy blockage isn't going to change your overall state. The blockage is just temporarily released then blocked again because that's your state. You've witnessed this first hand by getting sick again after treatments stopped.

There are better therapies, like Sifu Wong Kiew Kit's standing chi kung. This is hard to learn though, because the instructions are given in a koan like fashion ("smile from the heart"). To get the true benefit, you'd probably need to go to a class, which costs waaaay too much and is in Malaysia most of the time. It's one of those things where you don't truly understand what a person is talking about until you're with them in person, and can pick up on the subtle clues and hints from their presence. Until then, "smile from the heart" probably means nothing much.

There are more therapies but they become pretty advanced, and geared more towards enlightenment than just good health. You need to make a choice about what you want.

But my advice to you: follow what I said about sleeping. Eat 3 times a day, balanced meals at balanced intervals (like every 5 hours). Overchew your food, so that there aren't big chunks being swallowed. Eat organic breads, fruits, veggies, nuts. Don't eat spicy, oily, overly sweet things. Also get some meat in there, preferrably free range chicken or wild caught fish. If you are gonna have a burger, enjoy it. If you're gonna have a spicy meal, enjoy that as well...these are just guidelines which will start making your body healthier and making your immune system boost. Having a "bad" meal every once in a while isn't so bad...it's just bad when you always eat that way. As your immune system boosts, you'll notice you can eat pretty much anything and feel fine...but that's not a good reason to do it.

Get a full body workout in pretty much everyday (if you get too tired take a day off). I think Rodney Yee yoga videotapes are good for a fitness beginner, although I don't do them. Also walks and going for runs is good. Make sure you're keeping good form: your back and head straight, your shoulders in the middle of your pecs and back and not brought up too high (like you're scrunching), your hips under your torso, and your midfoot hitting the ground. After a few months, I suggest you go to http://www.rmaxi.com for more information. From there, start with Intu-Flow, and ask question on the forum.

Learn to listen to your body...that's the main point of all of these things. They are ways to get you in tune with what your body is "telling you". After doing these things for a while, you'll know what you need and don't need, and no doctor or acupuncturist or anything will have better information for you.

And by the way, if you don't know why something's done or if you don't understand any part of this, ask me. I'll be glad to help.

[Sapius]

PT: However, those in the Not Here understand others in the Not Here but not necessarily each other’s experiences.

Quite right, however, I may not be able to give much advice as such, but what I will try to do is see from your posts as to where you stand in the here. (I have read your other posts)

I must say, that firstly you are already quite ‘masculine’ in thought, because although you seemed to be a bit disillusioned by some posters here, (I saw that in another thread), you did not get too emotional about it and started a new thread. You have the strength; all you need is focus.

As far as I can tell, one of the struggles may be that you expect people in the ‘here’ to actually understand, and if not agree, to at least show some acceptance of your ‘not here’. The question that may be troubling you is, “why can’t others understand me? Why does a person stab me in the back when I have done nothing to him/her? Why can’t people see the simple common sense that it is illogical to hurt others? How can people be so down right stupid?” and so on…

If that is so, then please let me know. I could tell you how I handle that, but it will be only after you understand a long tall story, about existence. And since you did choose an appropriate name that reflects your philosophical understandings, in PassThrough, as in you considering yourself, say just a speck or a spark that flickers and disappears in a sea of causality, (I am not sure if I think that correctly, but reading your other posts it does point to it), then you should have no fear to say things about yourself freely. However, not the very personal ones. As Nick mentioned earlier, you will need to describe your understanding about the “not here”, or what experiences you have had in that respect.

And please take it easy, you have all the time in the world, go step by step. Most here will see to it that you get a better grounding in logic. I cannot give any advice on the medical side though, except my moral support. Take good care, be strong, and hang on. After all, who else will your daughter depend on for an unbiased and selfless guidance?

And Scott has some healthy advice there, although I know how difficult it is to keep a restless mind from taking a rest. However, in my opinion, ‘emptying’ it would not be the answer, nor is it possible, focusing it at another distraction is, be it of an impossible daydream, say a hope of betterment of humanity. As in, what if it were like this…. Or like that… Ahhhh…. I do that all the time.

[Gretchen]

A few tips for getting your "feet on the ground" if your head is too "in the clouds". Go on a walk and pay attention to your feet hitting the ground. Have more meat in your diet. Pay attention to whatever you're doing, if you're driving a car for example. If you're doing nothing but sitting, pay attention to your breath at your nostrils. This is all basically like meditation as you go through your day...and these are safe meditations. Not ones that take you deep into your own mind. They just make your attention one pointed and "in the Now".

I have put all readings on hold and checked out a book in the library partly because of what this older teacher said and partly because of what you said. I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist, but some of the things you say lend themselves that you have at least studied it.

The book I checked out is about a Buddhist practitioner here in the states who, empty himself, went into both Buddhism and psychology at the same time. While he was learning and later in practice, he began to see how Western attempts to "cure" people of their problems was not the best approach. Through various Zen masters, teachers, etc. he learned how to meditate into the emptiness, to face it, and grow from it. I believe I have isolated what I believe to be that emptiness while in reflective thought.

He said that it wasn't so much having to know everything about this emptiness but to first learn to tolerate it so that you could appreciate the growth and transformation that such a thing brings.

This is all fine and good, but how do you meditate on something like that? Is there a step method to get yourself into getting there? I haven't finished the book yet, and perhaps he is getting there, but it would be nice to understand somewhat of which he speaks.

The safe meditation you speak of is how I face this feeling already...it's almost ignoring it. I get caught up in the Now and it goes away to come back on another day when I'm unprepared to face it. So, I can definitely understand Sapius' point about trying not to empty the emptiness but to embrace and do something with it, although transference onto some other idea is not exactly facing it - that may be a useful thing to do in the future.

I hope I'm not being a pest, but you said you would offer advice and help. Thanks.

[sschaula]

Passthrough,

I have put all readings on hold and checked out a book in the library partly because of what this older teacher said and partly because of what you said. I'm not sure if you are a practicing Buddhist, but some of the things you say lend themselves that you have least studied it.

Officially I could be called a "sadhaka in training", and I have a guru. She is a master in the Kundalini Maha Siddha yoga tradition. My religion is perfect enlightenment, and any religion that has this as its foundation is what I am. Any part of a religion that strays from this is not what I am.

The book I checked out is about a Buddhist practitioner here in the states who, empty himself, went into both Buddhism and psychology at the same time.

What do you mean by "empty himself"?

While he was learning and later in practice, he began to see how Western attempts to "cure" people of their problems was not the best approach. Through various Zen masters, teachers, etc. he learned how to meditate into the emptiness, to face it, and grow from it.

Perhaps you could type up some of what he said about meditating into emptiness. From the way you put it I'm not sure what it means, but perhaps I could get it from his words.

I believe I have isolated what I believe to be that emptiness while in reflective thought.

Could you go into more detail about this? What is the emptiness?

He said that it wasn't so much having to know everything about this emptiness but to first learn to tolerate it so that you could appreciate the growth and transformation that such a thing brings.

Emptiness isn't a thing. How can you tolerate something if you don't know it? Perhaps you could post his words on this as well.

This is all fine and good, but how do you meditate on something like that?

I suppose if you know that everything will disappear, you are meditating on it....but I wouldn't recommend that as a meditation practice because it will do very little.

Is there a step method to get yourself into getting there? I haven't finished the book yet, and perhaps he is getting there, but it would be nice to understand somewhat of which he speaks.

It'd be easier if you told me the book title and author, so I could go check it out myself. Or if you posted specific paragraphs that you didn't understand I could try to decipher them.

The safe meditation you speak of is how I face this feeling already...it's almost ignoring it. I get caught up in the Now and it goes away to come back on another day when I'm unprepared to face it.

You're right that the safe meditation does ignore the feeling. I'm not sure what feeling exactly you're speaking of. Some people get the feeling of emptiness, but this is a different emptiness than the word I'm talking about. The feeling of emptiness you're talking of is better defined as depression. Someone may say "I feel so empty!" but that's totally different than a Buddhist saying "everything is empty!" A Buddhist may not be depressed at all while they say that.

About ignoring the feeling: You have to focus on something as you go through your day. It may be an endless stream of useless thoughts, with various useless feelings. This is what most people focus on. Or it may be whatever is happening in the moment...this is what a meditative person focuses on.

A lot of the tips I gave you don't have to do with ignoring your feelings, but becoming healthier. I think when you aren't healthy, depression has a better grip on you, but when you're healthy it's a lot easier to confront those things. You'd be very wise to follow that advice fully.

So, I can definitely understand Sapius' point about trying not to empty the emptiness but to embrace and do something with it, although transference onto some other idea is not exactly dealing with it either.

It's impossible to empty emptiness, because it's already empty. It's also impossible to do something with emptiness, because you can't do anything with an absence of things.

I hope I'm not being a pest, but you said you would offer advice and help. Thanks.

You're welcome. You aren't being a pest. I like talking about this.

[Sapius]

PT,

So, I can definitely understand Sapius' point about trying not to empty the emptiness but to embrace and do something with it, although transference onto some other idea is not exactly facing it - that may be a useful thing to do in the future.

That seems confusing to me too. However...

Actually I was not suggesting not to empty a mind, but that that it is actually impossible to do so. That would be the same thing as saying empty you consciousness, so first one has to understand what ‘mind’, consciousness, actually is, and how deep is it entrenched, and can that be emptied by consciously trying to empty it, because it is impossible to move a single step without consciousness being around, including a supposed empty mind.

However, calming down a mind is absolutely possible, and thinking about the things that one generally likes can do the job, for example, simply looking at your daughter’s picture, and thinking about a pleasant event you remember, is a distraction to a disturbed mind and diverts it to a sense of calmness, or on the other hand, you could sit crossed legged and think Om, or think that your mind is empty, but the question is, is it empty? You can never know if it is empty, because knowing itself is an act of consciousness, and one cannot be conscious of unconsciousness, and empty means just that. Who do you know that has the audacity to say that he knows unconsciousness? or an “empty” mind? Other than from what he “sees” in someone in coma, and still doesn’t actually know if that person is really unconscious.

The above is what philosophical thinking does to a person, however, there are other paths that are open to all, I cannot stop anyone from trying, but I did try it to my limits. May be I failed where others achieved wonders, but I cannot know that. I speak only form my own experience, and thinking, and you have to think on your own, not stop thinking. It really does not harm, as long as you can distract it and divert it to what you think will calm it, whatever that may be, but I don’t think you could empty it in any way.

So try all that is available, and then choose the best that suites you. What works for me, may not work for you, and vice versa. Hence I mentioned earlier, I may not be in the position to give an appropriate advise. Eventually it all depends on an individual self.

In my opinion, for a person like you, I would say that participating at this forum is the best pleasant distraction when the ‘here’ disturbs, and that could strengthen your ‘not here’ times. At other times, go about your life as usual, without expecting any one to understand you, for they know not what you know…. and it is not their fault… they are who they are because of causality, and you are who you are for the same reason… try to remember just THIS, at all times, and see how the ‘here’ and ‘not here’ will start converging.

[Gretchen]

You are right in that “emptiness” should be defined. There should be a better word.

The book is Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart by Mark Epstein. I have in no way finished the book yet, so I probably shouldn’t even be discussing it yet.

He told of a story of a young, eager man meeting with a Zen master to be taught. You may have heard the story of the overflowing tea cup already, but the Zen master offered the man tea and kept pouring even though the cup overflowed, explaining that unless a mind can be emptied it cannot absorb anything more. I think this may be how you are defining empty.

In my interpretation, “empty”, to this author, was a feeling (for lack of a better term) of not knowing who he was. I would think that each person’s “emptiness” in this definition could vary depending on what was troubling them. “Emptiness” is a bad choice of words, but it is the word he chose. I would more likely call it a void where you go, a place where you face your worst fear or disappointment, but you may not be too sure what that fear or disappointment is, thus attempting to meditate on the void (in the void) to ascertain what it is might be in order. But how?

I know what depression is and this emptiness is not depression. Depression is almost a selfish thing. I have had serotonin deficient depression, but found that if you buy into it you will live it, like your own personal hell. It took a long time to climb out of it, but I’ve moved passed that stage - that much I am assured. This emptiness is part of that Here and Not Here thing. It’s a void. I have always been different, but instead of embracing that difference I have used it against myself. Instead of pushing myself to utilize the very best gifts I have, I have squandered them away over the years on things that don’t matter. The biggest of those is education. You sit at a nice college, a very well-respected learning institution and instead of taking advantage of the learning experience, you wonder why you don’t fit in. You beat yourself up over it and waste all that time when you can be doing something positive for yourself. Even thinking about it makes me angry. I suppose hindsight is 20-20. One of the ideas I have in mind is to go back to school because now I have the time. I went back to the local university several years ago and loved it. It may be one way to channel the “too much yang” I have (Dr. Li’s diagnosis of my state).

The author also related a story about going to some type of training in Colorado. He had a set of twins for roommates who were in the health food market business. While he was intensely working on what he was being taught, they were out looking at the health food stores and bringing back fruits and vegetables. The author got very sore shoulders and could not relax. The twins taught him juggling and in the process got rid of his sore, stiff shoulders. So school may be my juggling act.

Perhaps rushing to solve the crisis is not the best plan. Looking for a quick fix may be disappointing in the end. Who knows, I may even be meditating already on this void and just don’t realize it. I’ll keep reading.

It is fascinating that you are taking up yoga as your life’s calling. Yoga is a very difficult discipline. I am not physical enough to hold the poses, it is absolutely excruciating to me. I know, I know… practice, practice, practice.

Sapius, you said this:
Who do you know that has the audacity to say that he knows unconsciousness? or an “empty” mind?

Truly. As I said above in the tea cup example, I can see that the young man was eager to grab onto knowledge in a greedy sort of way. The author also gave an account of a fellow student who tried to be the best, smartest student and be what a Harvard student is thought to be. He studied and studied all the time never resting. He came outside the building, fell, hitting his head and completely forgot everything he had learned, plus missed the next semester, all that time lost and the knowledge too.

But to “empty” one’s mind? I don’t know. It seems that one’s mind is at a certain place through life experience, learning, reading, thinking. There are certain “A HA” moments that may give one a greater insight into being or the mysteries of the world, but how do you empty that? Forget what you know, begin again?

You also said:

It really does not harm, as long as you can distract it and divert it to what you think will calm it, whatever that may be, but I don’t think you could empty it in any way.

I think the key words here…to what you think will calm it, whatever that may be. There is where you have something, but I think it is necessary to face whatever it is that makes it uncalm, and perhaps through this fog an answer will appear. I’m not sure you can empty it either. I do not understand that concept, but maybe Scott does.

And this:

In my opinion, for a person like you, I would say that participating at this forum is the best pleasant distraction when the ‘here’ disturbs, and that could strengthen your ‘not here’ times. At other times, go about your life as usual, without expecting any one to understand you, for they know not what you know…. and it is not their fault… they are who they are because of causality, and you are who you are for the same reason… try to remember just THIS, at all times, and see how the ‘here’ and ‘not here’ will start converging.

is very on point. But a causality puppet??? I have some thoughts about that for another time. I will get back to Quinn’s piece after I read a couple of more books. Cause and Effect is certain, but I cannot see how Quinn sees God in this equation the way he does. God is One and we are one with God. Why could God not set the whole thing in motion and then, in order to allow free will, sit back and watch the show? This part I need to really think about, reflect or whatever. I haven’t read enough to see how Quinn responds to intellectual progression. Science has proven one thing in that we have not regressed. And infinity… I could go on and on, but I need to stop. Arguing in ignorance of the facts is just plain…well, ignorant.

Thanks again both of you. I’m sure I’ll have some questions later on. Glad you’re here.

[sschaula]

Passthrough,

The book is Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart by Mark Epstein. I have in no way finished the book yet, so I probably shouldn’t even be discussing it yet.

I'll get a copy for myself to read in the next three weeks.

He told of a story of a young, eager man meeting with a Zen master to be taught. You may have heard the story of the overflowing tea cup already, but the Zen master offered the man tea and kept pouring even though the cup overflowed, explaining that unless a mind can be emptied it cannot absorb anything more. I think this may be how you are defining empty.

I can define empty in any way it could be defined. It's just a matter of what we're talking about. If I'm talking about learning, then I'd define an open attitude as having "emptied" the mind. That's only for that situation, though.

In my interpretation, “empty”, to this author, was a feeling (for lack of a better term) of not knowing who he was. I would think that each person’s “emptiness” in this definition could vary depending on what was troubling them. “Emptiness” is a bad choice of words, but it is the word he chose. I would more likely call it a void where you go, a place where you face your worst fear or disappointment, but you may not be too sure what that fear or disappointment is, thus attempting to meditate on the void (in the void) to ascertain what it is might be in order. But how?

A person can feel empty if they see others around them with character and personality, and they seem to not have any. If they have nothing to pinpoint which is who they are...nothing to identify with. This is definitely another definition.

I know what depression is and this emptiness is not depression. Depression is almost a selfish thing. I have had serotonin deficient depression, but found that if you buy into it you will live it, like your own personal hell. It took a long time to climb out of it, but I’ve moved passed that stage - that much I am assured.

Good.

This emptiness is part of that Here and Not Here thing. It’s a void. I have always been different, but instead of embracing that difference I have used it against myself. Instead of pushing myself to utilize the very best gifts I have, I have squandered them away over the years on things that don’t matter. The biggest of those is education. You sit at a nice college, a very well-respected learning institution and instead of taking advantage of the learning experience, you wonder why you don’t fit in. You beat yourself up over it and waste all that time when you can be doing something positive for yourself. Even thinking about it makes me angry. I suppose hindsight is 20-20. One of the ideas I have in mind is to go back to school because now I have the time. I went back to the local university several years ago and loved it. It may be one way to channel the “too much yang” I have (Dr. Li’s diagnosis of my state).

Yes, being reflective is "yang". Being in the moment is "yin". I wouldn't suggest trying to be in the moment, and I wouldn't suggest being more reflective. I wouldn't say you're "too much" of anything! You are what you are, and it will play out and gradually unravel. Then you will truly know yourself, and that's truly balance between "yin" and "yang".

You said this emptiness is like a void. Describe it more, because I have yet to understand it from your words.

Perhaps rushing to solve the crisis is not the best plan. Looking for a quick fix may be disappointing in the end. Who knows, I may even be meditating already on this void and just don’t realize it. I’ll keep reading.

What is the crisis exactly? How is solving the crisis a quick fix?

It is fascinating that you are taking up yoga as your life’s calling. Yoga is a very difficult discipline. I am not physical enough to hold the poses, it is absolutely excruciating to me. I know, I know… practice, practice, practice.

Ah, I'm not taking up the physical postures of Hatha yoga as a practice. I did that a few years ago, pretty intensely. The yoga I am taking part in is purely about enlightenment.

For fitness I think a person should follow what their body tells them, as well as try new things. One new thing I've just found out about is Falun Dafa...http://falundafa.org/eng/index.htm . I'm going to try it. Whatever makes you feel healthy, do it. But if you do too much of it, you may start to feel unhealthy. Read my post about my suggestions again.

About yoga postures being excrutiating...in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali it states that the postures should be effortless, so that your mind is absorbed in the infinite (basically, so you aren't focused on the stabbing pains in your body). This is good advice to follow when it comes to beginning yoga, as well as advancing in it. Even if you can't do much, doing a little does enable you to do more later. It's also not about if you can contort your body as much as someone else...it's about your personal wellness. Take it easy and relax with the poses...but also, don't give up and quit when you're feeling like you're not good enough. There's a big difference between hurting yourself, and healing yourself. Sometimes healing hurts...you need to learn how to see what's healing and what's not.

I do suggest that you try a beginner's Rodney Yee yoga videotape. Do it everyday or so. Once you feel healthy, move onto something else. Doing yoga for too long isn't good, it's just a good way to get in basic shape. Doing long intense stretches isn't good...more than 15 seconds and I don't think it's worth it. You can damage your tissues that way.

Also, since you're having sleep problems, do it in the morning.

Thanks again both of you. I’m sure I’ll have some questions later on. Glad you’re here.

No problem. If you have AOL instant messenger, I'm on there as well. My screenname is muju808. You can talk to me anytime.

[sue hindmarsh]

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God, can this thread become anymore Oprah Winfrey-ish?

A person’s unhappiness hasn’t anything to do with the serious pursuit of wisdom. If passthrough wants people to hold her hand and speak words of kindness to her, she should go to some women’s club or religious group - not fill up these pages with her self pitying rants. Not that I consider her to blame for this, for she has been egged on in this frivolous activity by the boy scouts present on this forum. They should know better than to feed someone’s ego with such foul irrationalities as empathy, hope and charity. By doing so, they show how inhuman they are, and how little they value truth.

-
Sue

[Sapius]

-
God, can this thread become anymore Oprah Winfrey-ish?

A person’s unhappiness hasn’t anything to do with the serious pursuit of wisdom. If passthrough wants people to hold her hand and speak words of kindness to her, she should go to some women’s club or religious group - not fill up these pages with her self pitying rants. Not that I consider her to blame for this, for she has been egged on in this frivolous activity by the boy scouts present on this forum. They should know better than to feed someone’s ego with such foul irrationalities as empathy, hope and charity. By doing so, they show how inhuman they are, and how little they value truth.

-
Sue

Well, what can I say... It makes my laugh and cry at the same moment... It is not your fault at all.

OK Sue, you are the greatest pursuer of Wisdom that ever lived, and the rest are scum, of course, except those that you consider not, and those you consider Enlightened.

:)

[Sapius]

PT,

is very on point. But a causality puppet???

No, not at all, that is the first step that has to sink in, and after that, read a thread here with the subject, “Causality is Free”, and then tell me what you understand. But first get it right that Ultimately, and I mean Ultimately, all is causality, but ecah and every speck is a world of causality in its-self too. Which is the difficult part to comprehend.

Hence I say, begin with the basics, and until and unless the basics don't sink in properly, future is bleak in this regard. That is what David's book is all about, and people don't even get that, coherently, simple that it is.

Start there, and that itself will take much time.

[Blair]

-
God, can this thread become anymore Oprah Winfrey-ish?

It's rather amusing to watch though, the gallant male lingering over the wounded female, as so many animals do. They are all girlies at heart.

The desire to bring hope and loveliness overides the truth.

[Sapius]

-
God, can this thread become anymore Oprah Winfrey-ish?

It's rather amusing to watch though, the gallant male lingering over the wounded female, as so many animals do. They are all girlies at heart.

The desire to bring hope and loveliness overides the truth.

It's not your fault either, Prince :)

[sue hindmarsh]

Sapius wrote:

Well, what can I say... It makes my laugh and cry at the same moment...

Laugh and cry all you like, this forum is for thinkers – not snake oil salesmen.

It is not your fault at all.

That’s correct - Nature made me do it.

OK Sue, you are the greatest pursuer of Wisdom that ever lived, and the rest are scum, of course, except those that you consider not, and those you consider Enlightened.

What’s it to me if anyone becomes enlightened. The Truth is what matters.

-
Sue

[sue hindmarsh]

prince wrote:

Sue: God, can this thread become anymore Oprah Winfrey-ish?

It's rather amusing to watch though, the gallant male lingering over the wounded female, as so many animals do.

I understand by amusing you mean ‘ridiculous’, but that doesn’t take away from the seriousness of the matter.

Women are like little children. Seeing males using them to pleasure themselves, is disgraceful. It just goes to show how much respect most men have for themselves.

They are all girlies at heart.

Perhaps so, but Sapius and Scott have professed some interest in understanding Reality, which means that they could at least try and act with some decorum.

The desire to bring hope and loveliness overides the truth.

Yes, having such a desire is egotism of the lowest order, as it panders directly to the herd.

It brings to mind Kierkegaard’s words about such mindlessness:

Most people think, speak, and write the way they sleep, eat, and drink, without any question ever arising as to their relationship to the eternal.

By not acting in accordance with Truth, you condemn you and your future lives to remain in Samsara indefinitely. It could be that Sapius’ and Scott’s lack of consideration for passthrough has put her philosophical development back another thousand years or more.
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Sue

[Gretchen]

Sue:
The "Thus Come One's room" indicates the expanse of the Buddha's compassion. The Buddha's compassion embraces all people and protects their lives from suffering and confusion. So it is compared to a room. Our efforts in dialogue begin with our compassion for others. Here compassion may be also understood as friendship and respect. Since the Buddhist concept of compassion is based on the universality of Buddhahood, compassion is not one's pity for those who seem weaker or inferior; it is more like a sentiment of friendly respect amongst equals.
Without compassion, friendship and respect, dialogue becomes merely a disguise for a self-righteous "monologue" detached from the reality of people. The stronger our sincere desire to remove others' suffering and impart joy, the broader and deeper our lives become, capable of embracing everyone. This may be why the Daishonin compares the Buddha's compassion to a mother's unconditional love for her child. Indeed, compassion is like a warm, inviting room in which no heart can remain closed.
The rest of the text is here:
http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/buddhismtoday/bc036.htm

Sue, it is not their fault. I came here looking for an answer to an unexplainable observation of myself and a few others. Until I can get past that, all else is unreachable. These guys, you may call them boy scouts, are patient when they could have reamed me around the throat, as in other posts. Scott was NOT a boy scout in an earlier post, in fact, he was pretty mean spirited. But, in his own way, he was making me think, to push my self past one of the most difficult things, so that I could be free to explore other things. It did get a little psychiatric couch-like, they wanted examples, I gave them…it’s over and so is this thread.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Hello Passthrough, you quoted:

compassion is not one's pity for those who seem weaker or inferior; it is more like a sentiment of friendly respect amongst equals.

Compassion is not a sentiment and even while it can at times appear as friendliness, it has nothing to do with friendliness or equality of persons.

Sometimes the most compassionate and wise thing to do is to feed the terminal ill some lethal poison as medicine, or to shoot someone's horse when it's gone cripple. It comes from a deep understanding - to the point of living it - of what gives overall the best chance on the flourishing of consciousness as well as having a stab at the core of suffering. And the word or action involved is always defined by the background and stage of the one being compassionate, and will only resonate with the ones acting already in front of similar backgrounds.

[sschaula]

...

[sschaula]

Passthrough, you wrote to Sue,

Sue, it is not their fault.

I take responsibility for everything I've said.

I came here looking for an answer to an unexplainable observation of myself and a few others. Until I can get past that, all else is unreachable.

So, I think we should continue discussing it until your mind is clear on it. Don't pay attention to antagonists.

[sue hindmarsh]

Scott wrote:

Sue: God, can this thread become anymore Oprah Winfrey-ish?

That's pretty funny coming from a woman.

Your true colours are bursting forth: you are a sexist through and through. Sexism comes from not valuing your own mind, thereby rendering you incapable of seeing what is true, and what is false.

Sue: A person’s unhappiness hasn’t anything to do with the serious pursuit of wisdom.

That's where the pursuit usually begins, Sue. It's good that she's here.

The pursuit of wisdom begins when you believe that truth, and nothing but the truth, will fulfill all your desires.

Sue: If passthrough wants people to hold her hand and speak words of kindness to her, she should go to some women’s club or religious group - not fill up these pages with her self pitying rants.

I don't think that's what she really wants.

It’s what you want, which is why you jumped so whole heartedly into her lap. Your “philosophy” of “good and bad” is based on your desire to make the world (your world) a safe and pleasant place to be in. This makes your mind the same mind as the mob – using others to satisfy your own needs and wants.

Sometimes egos need to grow. Do you really think this ego of Passthrough's is ready for a serious pursuit of truth? I don't. That's why she's getting the advice she is.

If passthrough had read the introduction to this forum, she would have been well informed as to the expectations placed on anyone who posts here. The fact that she still posted her emotional cry for help means that she doesn’t respect the aims of this forum.

There are hundreds of forums where people are more than willing to ‘help’ each other over emotional turmoil - this is not one of them.

Sue: By doing so, they show how inhuman they are, and how little they value truth.

I don't even know what to say to this. It should be obvious to any reader who is being human and who isn't here.

Kevin Solway wrote:

I hear people say: "We are too big to see the small things." They make themselves smaller. But I say to you: we are too small to see the big things!

Caring and sharing is the vile mix that keeps people’s minds small and closed up, allowing them to remain inhuman. For them to grow and flourish as a human, all they need do is stop all their wallowing and wailing, and thereby quiet their minds for thought.

Sue: Women are like little children. Seeing males using them to pleasure themselves, is disgraceful. It just goes to show how much respect most men have for themselves.

You think I'm pleasuring myself by talking to Passthrough?

Any man who sees women as something other than their own self are using and abusing them for their own perverse egotistical pleasure.

I didn't know there was decorum here. I also didn't know decorum included never showing any sign of empathy, hope and charity. What if those things naturally come from me, without my trying? What if I have to try to not have those things? Is that what a philosopher does? I'm just doing what I do, Sue. I'm helping someone, which is as natural to me at this point as breathing. Does this mean that I don't have a passion for understanding?

What if I (Scott) truly took my life seriously, so that I wanted to understand the consequences of my actions? What if I stopped valuing the herd above the Truth?

If your posts answered these two questions, you would indeed match the decorum required by this forum.

Does a person have to act like a robot to show that they love reality? Does valuing the truth really mean that a person will become cold hearted towards others?

The Truth only appears cold and hard to those who do not know, or value it.

Be careful you're not holding yourself back, Sue, by holding onto such stupid beliefs.

Since my aim is 100% certainty, any “stupid beliefs” that arise will be put through an exhaustive examination using logic to see if the ‘belief’ accords with Truth. Then, and only then, would I consider acting on it.

Sue: It brings to mind Kierkegaard’s words about such mindlessness:

Most people think, speak, and write the way they sleep, eat, and drink, without any question ever arising as to their relationship to the eternal.

Her being here and speaking to us has brought her quickly forward. No matter what we say, because of who we are, she is rapidly being brought up to speed with us. Once again, it's good that she's here.

Kierkegaard's writing about mindlessness is a good thing to reflect on...yet I don't see how it has anything to do with what's been said here. How are Sapius and I straying from mindfulness by doing what we've done? In fact, the things I've told Passthrough help in developing mindfulness.

You are confusing wisdom with insanity.

Helping people is for the insane, due to it being the incorrect identification of others existing separate from ourselves. The sane know, due their understanding of cause and effect, that others do not exist inherently – and also that even our own inherent existence is sheer fantasy.

I've absolutely been acting in accordance with the truth. It may not be about philosophy, but it's about readying people for philosophy. This is, in my opinion, more important than philosophy itself. Look at the many posters on this board who can't even think straight. There are a ton of them. They could all follow the advice I've given Passthrough, and ready themselves for philosophy.

To ready yourself for philosophy you need only one thing – the desire to stop lying.

Not anyone can just jump into thinking clearly. Small egos definitely can't do it. A person needs to have a developed character. Diving head first into Wisdom of the Infinite without this won't do much good.

Anyone with a functioning mind has the potential to become a lover of truth. When Nature calls, all one need do is follow. The trouble is though, most people are deaf, and so they never hear the call.

Besides, what I've been talking about with Passthrough hasn't totally been devoid of thoughtfulness. I've been asking her what she means by certain things, when it's unclear to me. By her answering, she's clearing out her own mind of useless clutter and edging closer towards philosophy. You didn't notice this at all?

What I “noticed” was you feeding off of her ignorance to justify your own cluttered perception.

Passthrough’s unhappiness is not any other person’s concern. As we have witnessed, she is very capable of finding relief from it in various ways, including coming to this forum.

Anyway, I don't apologize at all for what I've done. I don't think it's unphilosophical, untruthful, girly, Oprah Winfreyish, or disgraceful. Sue, I think you don't fully understand the path to enlightenment, and so pretty much anything you say to me is worthless. I don't think you know what enlightenment is. You've been confused by the philosophy here, and have gotten stuck along "the way". It should be obvious to anyone reading that you're not a Buddha...even a beginner on the path can see this.

I'm sure if you pay attention, you'll see the way out of your rut. In the meantime, it'd be best to watch as the conversation unfolds instead of interfering...which is a pretty irrational thing for you to do....wouldn't you say?

Not at all, since my aim is to live truthfully, and since this forum is dedicated to the advancement of Truth, writing here is a rational thing to do.

-
Sue

[sschaula]

Sue,

Your true colours are bursting forth: you are a sexist through and through. Sexism comes from not valuing your own mind, thereby rendering you incapable of seeing what is true, and what is false.

I simply turned your sexist comment back on you. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

Anyway, if I am sexist, so what? My "true colors are bursting forth"...as if I'm hiding who I am?

The pursuit of wisdom begins when you believe that truth, and nothing but the truth, will fulfill all your desires.

Well, that's one point along the way.

It’s what you want, which is why you jumped so whole heartedly into her lap. Your “philosophy” of “good and bad” is based on your desire to make the world (your world) a safe and pleasant place to be in. This makes your mind the same mind as the mob – using others to satisfy your own needs and wants.

My "philosophy" of "good and bad"? Read the Dhammapada. Try to understand it. "Good and bad" definitely has a place in the path to truth...but I certainly don't have some thoughtless philosophy about it. Reread what I said about it in the other thread.

If passthrough had read the introduction to this forum, she would have been well informed as to the expectations placed on anyone who posts here. The fact that she still posted her emotional cry for help means that she doesn’t respect the aims of this forum.

There are hundreds of forums where people are more than willing to ‘help’ each other over emotional turmoil - this is not one of them.

I agree with you on this.

Kevin Solway wrote:

I hear people say: "We are too big to see the small things." They make themselves smaller. But I say to you: we are too small to see the big things!

Caring and sharing is the vile mix that keeps people’s minds small and closed up, allowing them to remain inhuman. For them to grow and flourish as a human, all they need do is stop all their wallowing and wailing, and thereby quiet their minds for thought.

You call the way I was talking to Passthrough as "caring and sharing"? I definitely don't see it the same way. I was preparing her for the forum.

Any man who sees women as something other than their own self are using and abusing them for their own perverse egotistical pleasure.

I see Passthrough as the same as me (although not as my own self), but with stuff covering her up...so I attempt to remove the stuff.

I definitely don't see any "perverse egotistical pleasure" in what I've been doing. Do you actually see this, Sue? If you do, I wonder what kind of mental world you're creating for yourself.

What if I (Scott) truly took my life seriously, so that I wanted to understand the consequences of my actions? What if I stopped valuing the herd above the Truth?

If your posts answered these two questions, you would indeed match the decorum required by this forum.

You think I haven't thought of these things already?

The Truth only appears cold and hard to those who do not know, or value it.

I wasn't saying the truth was cold and hard, although it can be when it comes to confronting the ego. I was saying that you are being false, in acting cold and hard.

Acting.

Since my aim is 100% certainty, any “stupid beliefs” that arise will be put through an exhaustive examination using logic to see if the ‘belief’ accords with Truth. Then, and only then, would I consider acting on it.

Good.

You are confusing wisdom with insanity.

You're confusing what I write, with what you think about what I write.

Helping people is for the insane, due to it being the incorrect identification of others existing separate from ourselves. The sane know, due their understanding of cause and effect, that others do not exist inherently – and also that even our own inherent existence is sheer fantasy.

Helping people realize this is for the sane.

To ready yourself for philosophy you need only one thing – the desire to stop lying.

And how does that desire come about? How does one person bring that desire about in another?

Anyone with a functioning mind has the potential to become a lover of truth. When Nature calls, all one need do is follow. The trouble is though, most people are deaf, and so they never hear the call.

Anyone with a functioning mind has the POTENTIAL...they don't yet have the means.

What I “noticed” was you feeding off of her ignorance to justify your own cluttered perception.

Passthrough’s unhappiness is not any other person’s concern. As we have witnessed, she is very capable of finding relief from it in various ways, including coming to this forum.

A person with a tiny bit of a desire for truth will never find relief by stupid means. You know this. Only enlightenment quenches the thirst.

In talking to her, I wasn't justifying my "cluttered perception". I was clearing up her perception, and her vocabulary. Simple as that.

Not at all, since my aim is to live truthfully, and since this forum is dedicated to the advancement of Truth, writing here is a rational thing to do.

Your aim is to live truthfully? Why? When you don't inherently exist...when truthfulness and nontruthfulness don't actually matter since reality IS regardless of what we do. When what we do is just an illusion...why do you actually post here? Your answer is avoiding the truth.

Isn't talking to someone who is far from being a philosopher a good way to advance the truth?