Statement about Solway and Trump

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Pam Seeback » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:57 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Trump is a disaster, and Kevin's support of him makes me wonder if Kevin has gone mad. The notion that Trump will drive out the feminine does not fly with me because I see precious little about Trump that this forum would call masculine. I see greed, self-absorption. and an undisciplined temperament.

What we are seeing here are the cumulative effects of 'philosophical misogyny', the 'spiritual' masculine at war with the 'sensuously attached' feminine. While perhaps a valuable tool in the earlier stages of enlightenment, it represents the human emotion of aversion, therefore is a hindrance to attaining the ideal of Buddhahood.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:23 am

David Quinn wrote:His speech patterns are incoherent, his views on the world at large are blatantly ignorant, even his style of campaigning reeked of chaos and incompetence.


Not so incoherent or ignorant as you claim. Maintaining a large welfare state and public sector by taxing corporations who make money outsourcing manufacturing to countries where the population doesn't have to be paid as much as the locals is a problem. So is the HFT-plagued stock market running on unicorn farts - which Trump actually U-turned on by the way, and for which the MSM didn't call him out, and which is likely to morph into the final nail in his coffin.

All Trump had to do was to keep pointing these things out and avoid saying anything too stupid. If anything is incoherent, it's the solutions offered. Trump's worldview is, if anything, fundamentally neoliberal with some Randian/libertarian streaks here and there.

As I say, people keep on underestimating him. All throughout the campaign they laughed at him, calling him a buffoon.


His voters didn't underestimate or laugh at him, and he won because they grew in number throughout 2016. They received not inconsiderable encouragement and exposure from people like you. Now they are saying that this casino/real-estate magnate will release revolutionary technologies that will pave the way for the retro-futuristic Jetsonian utopia they desire.

Populist hero-worship fanned by butthurt liberal fearmongering got him elected.

It is precisely because Trump has no capacity to govern in a normal, sensible manner that he poses a grave danger to democracy in the US, and to international stability. If you cannot govern through competence, then you can only do it through chaos and fear.


Again, he isn't any worse than the previous trifecta of fuck. He *seems* worse, but that's because he is taking the helm of a sinking ship.

On the flip side, Kevin would be in hog’s heaven. He could trawl through endless third rate sites and watch endless third rate videos that claim to have irrefutable proof that his death certificate was forged. It would keep him harmlessly occupied for years.


I reiterate my earlier request - can you quote him asserting or implying absolute trust in Trump and the alt right?
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:53 am

Dan Rowden wrote:Russia has been an issue for months now.


The CIA + "deep state" (whatever/whoever that is) by their own admittance knew about supposed Russian interference for months, yet waited until he got into office?

Security agencies are in a tough spot in circumstances like this.


How empathetic of you.

They cannot approach an outgoing administration because they have no ability to act.


Which chapter of "Dan Rowden's intelligence agency rulebook" explains this seemingly bs claim?

They cannot approach an incoming administration because they have no willingness to act.


Why would they need to? If they found any impeachable evidence they just need to inform the judiciary and legislature. There's not a damn thing Trump can do.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:53 am

jupiviv,

Trump's worldview is . . . .

. . . any perception randomly picked up from watching Fox News or listening to a whisper from one of his aides in the last 5 minutes.


Again, he isn't any worse than the previous trifecta of fuck. He *seems* worse, but that's because he is taking the helm of a sinking ship.

He could take over the Starship Enterprise and still find a way to grind it into the dust. To quote someone from earlier in the thread, "It is eminently clear that Trump has no idea what he is doing."

Your mind is so clouded with liberal hate that you don't even realize when you are arguing against yourself.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:06 am

Pam,

Pam Seeback wrote:
DQ: It is easy to spread chaos, much harder to impose order, and even harder to actualize an ideal. I guess my problem is that I still believe in a universal ideal - namely, the rational, global individual beyond all race and ethnicity. Such an ideal seems to have lost all credibility in the world today, and everyone is crawling back to their tribal groups, and now we are entering a kind of neo-nationalistic era. I’m just going to have to accept this reality, I guess.

DvR: It might be interesting to examine the rational, global individual beyond race and ethnicity. Some kind of "Übermensch ideal"? It was clearly one of the struggles of Nietzsche to define it in the face of German low brow nationalism. But I don't think the Lockean ideal is something he had in mind either. Or what he called "Chinesedom".

DQ: I was thinking more along the lines of a fully-enlightened Buddha. A person without any delusions. That is what this forum is all about, isn't it?

Isn't a Buddha of a higher consciousness than one who is rational and above all race and ethnicity? Is not a Buddha one who has full comprehension of the ultimate nature of reality and teaches this truth and only this truth? How would such an individual possibly be an effective leader of a world that for the most part would consider his teachings that of a lunatic?

It seems to me as if you equate the human ideal of The Rational Man as being the highest ideal of Buddhahood. It is my experience that rational thinking guides one to comprehension of emptiness and has the power to purify the restless spirit of those things that prevent such comprehension (greed, aversion and ignorance) but that comprehension of emptiness is not the actualization of rational thinking. Yes? No?

It is indeed the actualization of rational thinking. Comprehension of emptiness arises when one abandons every last shred of delusion concerning objective existence and no longer grasps at anything. And this is brought about by fully absorbing the intellectual understanding that reason provides and integrating it into every aspect of one's existence.

Wisdom is "spontaneity after reflection", as Kierkegaard so eloquently put it.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:41 am

Diebert,

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Dan Rowden wrote: it's about the existential threat to facets of civilisation that ought matter to - yes, even detached philosophers - if only for purely pragmatic reasons.

But then again, even if so, notable philosophers, Nietzsche, Spinoza, Kierkegaard, the folks behind the Gospels, Chinese wisdom and so on, flourished in relatively repressive societies with little freedom. Everything had to be done through quite convoluted ways. It didn't stop them. Even better, we still know much of their writings.

It will be hard for a future Kierkegaard or Chuang Tzu to emerge if the world is reduced to burning embers.

I know you probably think I am being a bit melodramatic here, but staring at the equation of <Trump + hordes of blind fanatics looking for blood + nuclear weapons> can do that to a person.


And there's no indication anything worthwhile written in this age of personal freedoms would be even be noticed to the same extent. It's all more like a sea of indifference and overproduction now. In fifty years the whole of GF production probably is forgotten no matter the amount of "pragmatic freedom" kept intact. It's really something you need to consider in my opinion. Are you sure wisdom prospers in the circumstances you seem to prefer? What kind of society would facilitate that "infinite capacity for giving pain"? It's not an easy question, it's loaded with all kinds of traps but I need to ask.

We don't really know how wisdom would thrive in a sane, rational, knowledge-based society because it has never been tried. While the liberal establishment of the past few decades did possess a few elements of sanity and rationality, overall it still fell a long way short. Most glaringly, wisdom was never placed in the centre of the liberal establishment; it was never held up as the most important goal in life. And thus the establishment slid without much resistance into the aimlessness of hedonism and banality.

But even in this slide, the liberal establishment did demonstrate, with the development of modern science, for example, that a lot can be accomplished when people work together in a rational and civil fashion. As a species, we have great potential. Who knows what could be achieved if we were to put our minds towards building a society based in wisdom and rationality.

But it looks like we are turning our backs on all that. Anger and tribalism has become the order of the day.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:12 am

This journalist's view on Trump has my sympathy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyCAxYbYUdk

I would like Diebert and jupiviv, as senior members of a forum dedicated to truth, explain to everyone here why it is that they think this kind of behaviour from Trump is acceptable, or conducive to good governing, or indeed a desirable trait in any human being at all.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Eric Schiedler » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:39 am

A reputable psychiatrist will not diagnose someone with a narcissism disorder unless the patient complains about a negative effect on their own life. As far as Trump is concerned, I imagine that he's having the time of his life.

This psychiatrist vehemently disagrees with Trump but nevertheless says he should not be diagnosed: http://archive.is/VF5z7

Since the 1964 Goldwater & Johnson election, psychiatrists have recommended in their medical ethics rules to not diagnose the presidential candidates over TV. http://archive.is/oTLOp

That hasn't stopped many psychiatrists from speaking out against Trump because they can't help but speak out due to their conscience.

What is troubling is that so many people are following someone who gives leadership signals and little else of substance. When Trump riles up a crowd or a group of reporters, especially in live interviews, he is trying to dominate the conversation. Once the reporter is off-guard, then Trump is free to say whatever he wants to say. If he says anything insightful it is entirely by accident.

Trump is using a leadership tactic that people want to follow instinctively because it is a signal of hierarchy dominance. I imagine that it was the type of leadership that Hannibal used to drive an army over the Alps. I am also sure many of the soldiers were wondering what in the world they were doing and what were they going to find over the mountains.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:14 pm

Which reminds me of something Karl Rove reportedly said and there's no doubt it reflects what this chief strategist of G.W. Bush actually believed, considering other somewhat similar statements and actions.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do". -- source

That was in, or just before, 2004 -- at the center of power in the US, nuclear launch codes etc. This is the kind of ideology in charge in the past. Messianic, beyond reason, driven by principle and belief in ones own destiny. And the question in my mind is not only why only now people start worrying, after it got only more overt, but more fundamentally, if indeed the larger world, the global stage, does not work anymore like that, like a study of facts of discernible reality, deriving the "right thing to do" like a visit to a family doctor and perhaps a second opinion: the modern technocratic world view, which all in and by itself would be starting to fail us. The administrations of G.W. Bush and Trump are then only symptoms, reactions to this. The implication of all this might be more seriously than any threat of pending war or journalistic repression. It's a form of bankruptcy but not only at the conservative side, it's just reacting on even more serious decline inside the structures these kind of conservatives are trying to oppose. Which is the reason why I do not oppose critique on Trump while still looking at it in another kind of light altogether.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:18 pm

Trump, then, is the logical end-point of the Karl Rove point of view. While Rove and Bush were "creating their own realities" via a step-by-step progression away from discernible reality, Trump is living in an alternative universe which is entirely disconnected from discernible reality. And all of this on the back of decades of fake news and conspiracy theories pushed forth by an array of Republican figures.

So what is the liberal establishment's version of this? In what way does the liberal establishment disconnect from reality?
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:51 pm

David Quinn wrote: Trump is living in an alternative universe which is entirely disconnected from discernible reality.

Sure, the question remains open if he might represent a more general disconnect or not. Definitely I'm looking at him and the alt-right as counter-movements against some larger "establishment" which has increasingly become disconnected. But even in opposition to that, the disconnect remains. It's like fighting the fire of ignorance with more ignorance. That only shows the problem lies way beyond the spectacle, the drama we call politics. And that's my view: that everyone is discussing what is basically a distraction, all about events where there's not really anything at stake any more. The centre of power has shifted to other places, other dynamics entirely, all more or less in the shadows. What's left is reality-TV! And no one better at that than king of TV rating Donald Trump! Despite all the writings of newspapers and commenters, they are just as guilty creating this spectacle, a culmination of decades of hard eroding work!

So what is the liberal establishment's version of this? In what way does the liberal establishment disconnect from reality?

It's a big topic and I'd even leave out "liberal". In the end it's about "establishment" in these kind of discussions, as some king of ruling ideology of how the world at large works, on the scale of large nations and all complexity of cause and effect when these nations act on a global stage, clashing with different cultures and ambitions. Not to be mistaken by our own backyard or small-town politics. Actually boiling down the global stage to a small town is perhaps the biggest delusion you see in the alt-right. This urge to simplify things to elements one can still understand.
But also Liberal politicians have caused a dangerous mess, looking at Libya and Syria, Yemen, and even by supporting a "revolution" in Ukraine without for one second realizing the consequences. The list could go on and the pile of victims and destroyed infrastructure is shocking!

Anyway, the topic "the disconnect of the modern world and its political representation" is the size of a whole forum. Normally I engage in those discussion at other places as most forum members here never responded much to earlier attempts (by various members) to discuss it. To be honest the topic is hairy and often would waver in many directions and personal opinions.

But perhaps the following describes my ideas a bit better. Quite recently I watched the latest documentary by Adam Curtis called "HyperNormalisation" (and here a Youtube link). It's a visual introduction to various topics including a state of affair, like in the old Soviet Union, where "politicians and citizens were resigned to maintaining a pretence of a functioning society". It should be no surprise I believe we already past an actually functioning society or economy. It's kept going only by a belief it is, which would explain the reaction to anything or anyone introducing doubts or sudden changes going against the holy status quo. The response will be first ridicule, then strong, even violent opposition, which is the phase I see happening now.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:13 am

David Quinn wrote:
Trump's worldview is . . . .

. . . any perception randomly picked up from watching Fox News or listening to a whisper from one of his aides in the last 5 minutes.


He has sympathised with democrats for a long time. It would take a 5 minute search to find examples.

I would like Diebert and jupiviv, as senior members of a forum dedicated to truth, explain to everyone here why it is that they think this kind of behaviour from Trump is acceptable, or conducive to good governing, or indeed a desirable trait in any human being at all.


Why do you persist with this strawman? I hate political sports. If you criticise Trump then you should also criticise his enemies based on the same standards of truth and morality. Else, you are acting irrationally as far as I'm concerned. In fact, if you want a great summary of the reasons I've heretofore given for believing that, just look at the chaos around Flynn's resignation. Nobody knows what he actually said, yet everybody has an opinion on it.

Question: why didn't the CIA leak Flynn's *own words*?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/15/515437291/intelligence-official-transcripts-of-flynns-calls-dont-show-criminal-wrongdoing

Depending on the content of the conversations, Flynn could have violated a law called the Logan Act, which bars a private individual from conducting foreign policy without the permission of the U.S. government. For instance, if Flynn told the ambassador the Trump administration would drop the sanctions, that would have been illegal.

The intelligence official who has personally seen the transcripts told Mary Louise they contained "no evidence" of criminal wrongdoing, although the official said it can't be definitively ruled out.

The official also said there was "absolutely nothing" in the transcripts that suggests Flynn was acting under instructions "or that the trail leads higher."

"I don't think [Flynn] knew he was doing anything wrong," the official said. "Flynn talked about sanctions, but no specific promises were made. Flynn was speaking more in general 'maybe we'll take a look at this going forward' terms."


[Note that this is a liberal source.]


My bet is that all this drama was just mandatory job training by CIA/deep state/Langley/whoever. Showing little Donny his special place in the world.

P.S - to re-reiterate (you might have missed the reiteration), will you provide a quote from Kevin where he expresses categorical support for Trump and the alt-right movement?
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Sat Feb 18, 2017 1:49 am

David Quinn wrote:It will be hard for a future Kierkegaard or Chuang Tzu to emerge if the world is reduced to burning embers.

I know you probably think I am being a bit melodramatic here, but staring at the equation of <Trump + hordes of blind fanatics looking for blood + nuclear weapons> can do that to a person.


Those horrible Russians stood by as NATO intentionally violated every non-aggression pact signed with Russia in the 90s. In Obama's last month NATO moved tanks close to Russia's border with the Baltic states, and the Russians did nothing. Previously, NATO sanctioned Russia because they annexed Crimea for entirely rational reasons after a bloody revolution sparked and funded by US-NATO which left Ukraine in chaos; the Russians did nothing. Putin's response to the Obama administration's relentless anti-Russian propaganda was calm and diplomatic. US-NATO attacked Syria - a Russian ally - and funded militants hostile to the Assad government, and probably later joined the ranks of ISIS; this time the Russians responded by aiding their ally, and the prostituted western media denounced this as a hostile act by a fascist government.

Now the Trump administration wants better relations with Russia, and this is supposed to lead to WW3? Face it David, you are brainwashed and proud of it.

In case you want to accuse me of supporting Trump again - I don't support him or most of his supporters, and yes in some cases they are much worse than the average liberal. However, I fail to see how his stance towards Russia is dangerous for anybody, and frankly you are pissing on your own intellectual legacy when you say things like the above.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:19 am

jupiviv wrote:Those horrible Russians stood by as NATO intentionally violated every non-aggression pact signed with Russia in the 90s.

Not anything like that was signed. But the Russians have reasons enough to feel threatened, when their neighbors are being armed, bases erected increasingly closer to Moscow and Western NGO's promoting reforms and distance from Russia ("destabilizing politics") inside the Russian Federation and within their near abroad. Those are indeed direct threats.

Now the Trump administration wants better relations with Russia, and this is supposed to lead to WW3?

The stated worry as I read it was, as well, about mental imbalance, seeking a fight with the Chinese, alienating Iran, giving Israel free reign and so on. These are all paths which indeed will further destabilize the world and would involve nuclear states.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:00 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Definitely I'm looking at him and the alt-right as counter-movements against some larger "establishment" which has increasingly become disconnected. But even in opposition to that, the disconnect remains.


There is also the possibility that it's all one big, not-quite-happy family behind the veil of Twitter, MSM, Populist Oligarchy Warriors (POW!) etc. What is the deep state supposed to be like anyway? Men in black, reptiles or dead-eyed bureaucrats daydreaming about their think-tank/MIC sinecures? House of Cards, Game of Thrones etc. all have it so wrong it isn't even funny (all the more reason not to watch them). The more power, the less reason for using that power.

Those horrible Russians stood by as NATO intentionally violated every non-aggression pact signed with Russia in the 90s.


Not anything like that was signed.


You're right, no internationally recognised pacts or treaties were signed. There were supposed to have been "promises" not to expand, though. Non-binding, goodwill-based non-aggression pacts.

The stated worry as I read it was, as well, about mental imbalance, seeking a fight with the Chinese, alienating Iran, giving Israel free reign and so on. These are all paths which indeed will further destabilize the world and would involve nuclear states.


But that's the only way he can implement MAGA without derailing the MIC gravy train! Er, Pepe deigns it so...? Seriously though, it's got to be one or the other. Trump probably understands that part of the status quo and obviously can't be bothered to change it.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:38 am

jupiviv wrote:
David Quinn wrote:
Trump's worldview is . . . .

. . . any perception randomly picked up from watching Fox News or listening to a whisper from one of his aides in the last 5 minutes.

He has sympathised with democrats for a long time. It would take a 5 minute search to find examples.

A quick search reveals that he has flip-flopped between Republican and Democratic positions his whole life. And indeed since his election, far from adopting a Democrat's viewpoint, his cabinet picks and executive orders have all been applauded by conservative Republicans. The guy is self-absorbed and opportunistic. To say that he has deeply-held views on anything is meaningless. Except, maybe, to bomb Iran. He does seem fixated on that.


jupiviv wrote:
David Quinn wrote:I would like Diebert and jupiviv, as senior members of a forum dedicated to truth, explain to everyone here why it is that they think this kind of behaviour from Trump is acceptable, or conducive to good governing, or indeed a desirable trait in any human being at all.

Why do you persist with this strawman? I hate political sports. If you criticise Trump then you should also criticise his enemies based on the same standards of truth and morality.

Trump is on another level entirely. While other people might lie strategically in order to take advantage of a situation, Trump just flat out disregards the truth in all situations. He lives almost his entire life in a fact-free environment. This is obvious to anyone who possesses an unclouded mind.


Else, you are acting irrationally as far as I'm concerned. In fact, if you want a great summary of the reasons I've heretofore given for believing that, just look at the chaos around Flynn's resignation. Nobody knows what he actually said, yet everybody has an opinion on it.

The chaos has been created by Trump and his complete disregard for truth. If Trump possessed any regard for truth, he would have known that Michael Flynn is an unstable character known for his temper tantrums and constant habit of lying. He was fired from his last post as director of Defense Intelligence Agency in 2013 because he was such a dismal performer. His subordinates at the time used to compile a list of what they “Flynn facts”, things he would say that weren’t true, and he would publicly berate people in an unhinged manner. The guy clearly has form. It was inevitable that he would find a way to bungle his most recent job.

Moreover, given the way that the incompetent Trump has stupidly waged war with the intelligence agencies over the past year, it was inevitable that these agencies would find ways to strike back. It was so, so predictable. No, sorry, this mess is all on Trump. The whole Flynn debacle was entirely engineered by Trump and his lying, incompetent ways.


However, I fail to see how his stance towards Russia is dangerous for anybody, and frankly you are pissing on your own intellectual legacy when you say things like the above.

There is nothing wrong with developing a less fractious relationship with Russia, at least in principle. But with the combination of Trumps's complete disregard for truth, his thin-skinned vindictiveness and his desire to turn America into a Putin-style state, he is not the man to do it. It will only end in disaster.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:41 am

Eric Schiedler wrote:A reputable psychiatrist will not diagnose someone with a narcissism disorder unless the patient complains about a negative effect on their own life. As far as Trump is concerned, I imagine that he's having the time of his life.

This psychiatrist vehemently disagrees with Trump but nevertheless says he should not be diagnosed: http://archive.is/VF5z7

Since the 1964 Goldwater & Johnson election, psychiatrists have recommended in their medical ethics rules to not diagnose the presidential candidates over TV. http://archive.is/oTLOp

That hasn't stopped many psychiatrists from speaking out against Trump because they can't help but speak out due to their conscience.

As that journalist in the clip I provided points out, it doesn't really matter whether Trump has a diagnosable illness or not. Just the fact that he drowns us all with fact-free deceptions on a daily basis is enough to disqualify him from office. For either he believes in the deceptions he is uttering, which means he is delusional. Or he doesn't believe in them, which means that he is cynically using them to undermine confidence in democratic institutions and norms. It's hard to tell which is worse.


What is troubling is that so many people are following someone who gives leadership signals and little else of substance. When Trump riles up a crowd or a group of reporters, especially in live interviews, he is trying to dominate the conversation. Once the reporter is off-guard, then Trump is free to say whatever he wants to say. If he says anything insightful it is entirely by accident.

Trump is using a leadership tactic that people want to follow instinctively because it is a signal of hierarchy dominance. I imagine that it was the type of leadership that Hannibal used to drive an army over the Alps. I am also sure many of the soldiers were wondering what in the world they were doing and what were they going to find over the mountains.

It must be dreadful to be a politician in America, having to deal with all the crazy people over there. Day after day, wherever you go, having to put up with the most irrational and maniacal behaviour from hordes of ignorant, incoherent people frothing at the mouth as though they had rabies. What a nightmare! I just thank the gods that I am living 13000 miles away in peaceful Australia.

The craziness has always been there, of course. Around the world, we all used to laugh at the loud stupidity of Americans and their incredible ignorance. It was almost an international pastime. But it seems that in electing a black president with a Muslim-sounding name like "Obama", the craziness has really been cranked up in the last few years. Many people seem to have gone mental over the very idea that a black Muslim has sneaked into the country and ruined white America. And all of that has led to Trump.

Clinton, Bush and Obama may have had their various flaws, but the one thing they all had in common was their relaxed, common sense. They were relatively sensible people who kept a lid on all the crazies in their country, at least as best they could. But with Trump, that barrier has vanished. The crazies have taken over the White House. And now we in the rest of the world watch in trepidation and hope that the craziness doesn't continue to spread.

It is like an infectious disease. More and more people are coming down with it. Kevin Solway has become infected with it, and there are probably several million people here in Australia who either have it or are in danger of getting it. And those of us who reject the craziness, even we can't escape it, for we are forced to deal with this nightmarish situation. Everyone is being dragged into it. We are all being forced to choose sides. This cannot be good for the future of world peace and international stability.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:03 pm

David Quinn wrote:A quick search reveals that he has flip-flopped between Republican and Democratic positions his whole life.


As have most people, including politicians. The point is that Trump isn't an ideologue, which is what you (contradictorily) claim he is.

Trump just flat out disregards the truth in all situations. He lives almost his entire life in a fact-free environment. This is obvious to anyone who possesses an unclouded mind.


He tells the truth about quite a few things, some of which I've already mentioned. What distinguishes him from other politicians is that he is an incompetent liar. So incompetent, in fact, that even some of his lies reveal the truth. But it's a reality show, or professional fake wrestling. He's the title holder at the moment.

Else, you are acting irrationally as far as I'm concerned. In fact, if you want a great summary of the reasons I've heretofore given for believing that, just look at the chaos around Flynn's resignation. Nobody knows what he actually said, yet everybody has an opinion on it.

The chaos has been created by Trump and his complete disregard for truth.


No. The chaos was created, first by the CIA which leaked questionable info to the press, and then by the press which irresponsibly speculated upon that info. Flynn's character or past deeds aren't relevant to the issue.

Moreover, given the way that the incompetent Trump has stupidly waged war with the intelligence agencies over the past year, it was inevitable that these agencies would find ways to strike back. It was so, so predictable. No, sorry, this mess is all on Trump. The whole Flynn debacle was entirely engineered by Trump and his lying, incompetent ways.


What is your point here? Is it that Trump was stupid to pick a fight with them, or that he was stupid for believing that some of their actions are immoral and/or illegal?

There is nothing wrong with developing a less fractious relationship with Russia, at least in principle. But with the combination of Trumps's complete disregard for truth, his thin-skinned vindictiveness and his desire to turn America into a Putin-style state, he is not the man to do it. It will only end in disaster.


You think Clinton, who called Putin "the new Hitler", would do it? Or Obama, who attacked a Russian ally without provocation? Trump at least wants good relations with Russia. Of course, he also wants to start trade wars with China, but that's not worse than war with Russia.

The vast majority of Russians haven't faced any persecution under Putin. The only major difference between a Putin-style state and the average western state is the credit-based purchasing power available to the population.

It must be dreadful to be a politician in America, having to deal with all the crazy people over there. Day after day, wherever you go, having to put up with the most irrational and maniacal behaviour from hordes of ignorant, incoherent people frothing at the mouth as though they had rabies. What a nightmare! I just thank the gods that I am living 13000 miles away in peaceful Australia.


Aren't Australians the descendents of English rednecks and criminals? I don't see much of a difference between Australians and Americans in that respect, including the way they generally behave in our times. I guess proximity breeds contempt.

P.S - to re-re-reiterate, can you quote Kevin expressing unconditional support for Trump and the alt-right movement? How about the email conversations you mentioned?
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:17 pm

David Quinn wrote:... it doesn't really matter whether Trump has a diagnosable illness or not. Just the fact that he drowns us all with fact-free deceptions on a daily basis is enough to disqualify him from office. For either he believes in the deceptions he is uttering, which means he is delusional. Or he doesn't believe in them, which means that he is cynically using them to undermine confidence in democratic institutions and norms. It's hard to tell which is worse.

Just to give one example, someone like John McCain is clearly way worse. And if there's any thing good to name about Trump is that he's at least not McCain and where he stands for. Or forgotten hyper-real characters like Sarah Palin running for vice?

Lets look briefly at McCain as comparison material, this leading conservative figure and former candidate calling openly to bomb certain countries (Iran, Syria), took Palin as Vice-President who arguably is a few degrees more insane than Trump ever could be (no need to list why) or lets talk about McCain's support for some truly bizarre religious fruitcakes. Add to that his habit of lying, changing most positions, openly allying himself with very unsavory characters in Syria and Ukraine, and so on. Compared to him, Trump seems really a bit more sane but indeed way less smooth as operator. And in this case, I do think it's justified to compare and look at Trump relatively, as to understand him better inside a context. He's not running in Europe or Australia after all. He's not trying to speak to that culture although he does have his support there too. And why would he? Why does he have to represent the Western world ("we are the world"). That in itself is a well hidden but way more dangerous delusion. One which Russia loves to poke holes in. But really, it's just ugly reality setting in.

Clinton, Bush and Obama may have had their various flaws, but the one thing they all had in common was their relaxed, common sense.

I think you're confusing smooth, immaculate, more designed appearances with having actual common sense. Such common sense has left the scene already ages ago and all we have now to work with are various levels of pretense and appearances of cool and composed. Don't get fooled by it! God bless Trump for shattering this veil perhaps once and for all and now the world sees what's behind the mask, the actually "ugly American", the confused and bankrupt hypocrite without all the pretense. Trump is the utter cumulation of the system even in his attempts to oppose and "drain" it of undesired things. Trump then as very pinnacle of all he opposes! But it's also opportunity to start understanding like every mirror or exposition offers.

At best a Trump administration will be destabilizing and cracking holes in the establishment fortress made of secrets and contradictions. All opportunities for chaos and war? Sure, but like all danger: also opportunity for people to wise up and start understanding hope for the future should never be build on politicians keeping us save from harm.

They were relatively sensible people who kept a lid on all the crazies in their country, at least as best they could.

There's no indication these people are now gone. In fact, sensible people in all layers of society and government may have prevented many disasters already for many decades. But perhaps because of that somehow the belief has grown that government functions, that international diplomacy functions, that society functions. In the end that is also merely a belief. Clearly it always has been full of friction, decline or disaster. But the 21st century is somehow unique because of the amount of people put to sleep thinking it's all different now since their post-WW2 birth and relative peace and material prosperity in their own bubble which they call "the whole wide world".

It is like an infectious disease. More and more people are coming down with it. Kevin Solway has become infected with it, and there are probably several million people here in Australia who either have it or are in danger of getting it. And those of us who reject the craziness, even we can't escape it, for we are forced to deal with this nightmarish situation. Everyone is being dragged into it. We are all being forced to choose sides. This cannot be good for the future of world peace and international stability.

The crazy thing is that it isn't that crazy. But you still believe in rational institutes ruling the world with perhaps faulty but decent people guiding it all along. There are just more and more people doubting that very thing. The result is a Trump but it's only the first in a line with his meteoric rise and likely fall. The same is going on in European countries, started way before Trump in slightly other shapes and forms. It's all going to happen and I generally support it although it will be messy and painful. It's about waking up from a political delusion lasting decades! Too much stuff has been repressed, too many contradictions have been institutionalized. So the wound will open and some risks might be there indeed of infections. No risk, no play, no gain.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:30 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Trump is a disaster, and Kevin's support of him makes me wonder if Kevin has gone mad. The notion that Trump will drive out the feminine does not fly with me because I see precious little about Trump that this forum would call masculine. I see greed, self-absorption. and an undisciplined temperament.

Greed, self-absorption. and an undisciplined temperament are still masculine, Elizabeth. Just masculinity that is too much focused on illusionary material stuff, the non-existent self and certainly not disciplined. Perhaps like a young boy. It's a rawer version of the masculine drive. With wise men this same drive went inward at an earlier age, being a bit more distrusting about stuff, for whatever reason, than would be normal for their age. If it happens at an early age, all the needed mental habits can develop.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby jupiviv » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:29 am

On the other hand:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-1 ... ccountable

To paraphrase Detective Gordon of Gotham, Trump is the hero the Deep State needs but not the one it deserves. So it will hunt him. Because he can take it. Because he's not its hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.

Meanwhile, quietly in the background we Earthlings are burning through 90+ million barrels of non-renewable capital every 24 hours.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:18 am

Diebert,

Elizabeth Isabelle: Trump is a disaster, and Kevin's support of him makes me wonder if Kevin has gone mad. The notion that Trump will drive out the feminine does not fly with me because I see precious little about Trump that this forum would call masculine. I see greed, self-absorption. and an undisciplined temperament.

Diebert: Greed, self-absorption. and an undisciplined temperament are still masculine, Elizabeth. Just masculinity that is too much focused on illusionary material stuff, the non-existent self and certainly not disciplined. Perhaps like a young boy. It's a rawer version of the masculine drive. With wise men this same drive went inward at an earlier age, being a bit more distrusting about stuff, for whatever reason, than would be normal for their age. If it happens at an early age, all the needed mental habits can develop.

It is certainly not masculinity as traditionally defined by this forum, which has always tied masculinity to consciousness and wisdom.

I see Trump as someone who is severely autistic - i.e. one who is highly developed in one specific area, while remaining undeveloped everywhere else. He is highly developed in the con-artist skill of instinctively reading people’s insecurities and fears and knowing how to take advantage of them by spinning them bullshit. He absolutely excels in that, but when it comes to anything else - whether it be structured thought, rationality, the ability to separate truth from fiction, a sense of humour, empathy for others, etc - it’s as though all those areas in his brain have withered away and died.

This is why he cannot attend any meetings without having people like Ivanka, Bannon and Kushner at his side. These people represent the various aspects of him that have atrophied. Bannon is the cerebral aspect, for example, while Ivanka is the feminine. Kellyanne Conway is the aspect of him that tries to be socially acceptable, while Priebus represents the practical, donkey-work side. (I don’t know enough about Kushner to determine what aspect he represents). If you put all these partial people together, then you have a more complete individual. But we are still a long way from masculinity here.

Trump transcends the womanly urge to herd with others not by heightening his consciousness, but by diminishing it. His power, his ability to ride roughshod over others, comes from the fact that he is both thoughtless and shameless.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Eric Schiedler » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:23 am

I’ve lived outside the United States and in addition have met countless people from various countries and if they are thinking persons they have a nearly universal penchant for criticizing the United States. I say they don’t criticize it enough! What I mean is that their view of the nation focuses on one aspect or overarching criticism but in reality the United States is an enormous conglomerate of various sub-cultures agglutinated into a consensus. It would be a formidable task for a mind to comprehend the vast variety all at once. The social fabric is so complex that perhaps very few people ever attempt it. There is enormous variety in attitudes about every possible social, intellectual and political position. The power of the country is obvious enough reason to be fascinated by the subject, but many people are surprised that they can find many kindred, civilized spirits while at the same time be repelled by the presence of alter-egos.

That is what I find quite energizing about living in the United States. The clash and tension between subcultures forces people into eye-opening situations. I am not certain that I could have developed a strong value towards spiritual development if I had not had a variety of cross-cultural exposure at a very personal level. While the overall theme of the culture is mercantilist, there is a lot of art, literature, intellectual thought, and innovation produced in the United States. Despite the many corporate workaholics like Steve Jobs, there is room for a writer of the caliber of William Faulkner. In reaction to racial tensions, there emerged an artistic spirit - Antonin Dvorak correctly predicted that American music would dominate the world. That the US does not produce many geniuses, well, Weininger had quite a bit to say about that: “The age does not create the genius it requires.”


David Quinn wrote:
I see Trump as someone who is severely autistic - i.e. one who is highly developed in one specific area, while remaining undeveloped everywhere else.
...
This is why he cannot attend any meetings without having people like Ivanka, Bannon and Kushner at his side.
...
Trump transcends the womanly urge to herd with others not by heightening his consciousness, but by diminishing it. His power, his ability to ride roughshod over others, comes from the fact that he is both thoughtless and shameless.


Don’t overlook Mike Pence, the Vice President. He is a serious, professional politician with full access to Trump for the moment and cannot be fired nor easily side-lined.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby David Quinn » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:31 am

jupiviv,

DQ: A quick search reveals that he has flip-flopped between Republican and Democratic positions his whole life.

Jup: As have most people, including politicians. The point is that Trump isn't an ideologue, which is what you (contradictorily) claim he is.

He is definitely not an ideologue. And yet he lives in a fact-free environment. The correct term for him is bullshit artist.


DQ: Trump just flat out disregards the truth in all situations. He lives almost his entire life in a fact-free environment. This is obvious to anyone who possesses an unclouded mind.

Jup: He tells the truth about quite a few things, some of which I've already mentioned.

I haven’t heard him utter a single truth about anything. Nothing coherent ever comes out of his mouth, so it is laughable to even think that Trump could utter a truth.

A lot of people like to project onto his comments whatever it is they want to hear. Because his speech is so incoherent and henid-like, they are like rorschach blots that admit of multiple interpretations. He just splats them out there and leaves his rabid fans to do the rest. It is very effective in the current climate.


DQ: Moreover, given the way that the incompetent Trump has stupidly waged war with the intelligence agencies over the past year, it was inevitable that these agencies would find ways to strike back. It was so, so predictable. No, sorry, this mess is all on Trump. The whole Flynn debacle was entirely engineered by Trump and his lying, incompetent ways.

Jup: What is your point here? Is it that Trump was stupid to pick a fight with them, or that he was stupid for believing that some of their actions are immoral and/or illegal?

It is pretty clear to me that Trump is trying to delegitimize the intelligence services in the same way that he is trying to delegitimize the media. He knows that both the intelligence services and the media have the ability to bring him down and he is trying to preempt that from happening. And so what we are witnessing is a raw power struggle in which each side is desperately trying to undermine the other.

Waging war on the intelligence services is a bold, high-risk strategy on Trump’s part, but it is one that he has to undertake if he going to succeed in installing a police state. Gaining control of the intelligence services is a must. For their part, the intelligence services utterly despise Trump and see him for the mentally-ill, wanna-be dictator that he is, and they are doing everything they can to prevent him from succeeding in his hostile take-over of the country. Michael Flynn is a casualty of this war.


DQ: There is nothing wrong with developing a less fractious relationship with Russia, at least in principle. But with the combination of Trumps's complete disregard for truth, his thin-skinned vindictiveness and his desire to turn America into a Putin-style state, he is not the man to do it. It will only end in disaster.

Jup: You think Clinton, who called Putin "the new Hitler", would do it? Or Obama, who attacked a Russian ally without provocation? Trump at least wants good relations with Russia. Of course, he also wants to start trade wars with China, but that's not worse than war with Russia.

To repeat what I’ve said before, I have no interest in Clinton or Obama or the Democrats. I am not into politics, I have no political affiliation. I am simply standing up for sanity.

With that in mind, virtually anyone on this earth would be preferable to Trump. Go to a mental asylum, pluck out a random patient and place him in the White House and he is likely to be a far saner and more rational president than Trump. Seriously.

However bad the system might be, however fragile the economy or however corrupt the establishment, it makes no sense to address these problems by putting in charge a crazy person who lives in a fact-free environment. How does that solve anything? What kind of dark, twisted, distorted convolutions of mind do you have to go through in order to view that as a solution? It’s insane.
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Re: Statement about Solway and Trump

Postby Diebert van Rhijn » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:52 am

David Quinn wrote:It is certainly not masculinity as traditionally defined by this forum, which has always tied masculinity to consciousness and wisdom.

The "forum" has defined nothing in particular to my knowing, nothing like a consensus on anything. But yes, you are often tying it to purpose, courage and rational, single-minded persistence, to endurance and so on. Which is great but it should have been clear, in terms of psychological matters, that greed, self-absorption and having a temperament do not have to be its opposite either.

To boil it down further: Trump has a lot of purpose and endurance, he's been trying to become president since 1988 with his first serious run in 2000 (Reform Party). As for courage, well, he certainly takes a lot of risks, pissing off knowingly the amount of people and organizations he does, including very powerful ones. The only thing he does not demonstrate very well is any rational image.

It's not different from many masculine people who chase illusionary stuff and do not start the journey inwards and discover the mirrors. It ends like getting stuck with increasing amounts of karma, illusions and lies, all to prevent the insight that it was all a lot of fuzz about nothing, no real substance. It's a poor man's life after all.

Trump transcends the womanly urge to herd with others not by heightening his consciousness, but by diminishing it. His power, his ability to ride roughshod over others, comes from the fact that he is both thoughtless and shameless.

You seem to attribute as many negative attributes to him as his fans might be heaping up the praise. He's so many things, so many labels! To be all that, and so cunning and deceiving, so manipulative as you are implying, he must have superman powers! It would be unnatural at least. And that's exactly the interesting thing about him: your reaction and that of the liberal, feminine, political correct, equality loving and those overly attached to some "reasonable" image. Sometimes his most vocal enemies make me want to side with Trump. And perhaps you should also consider who is shouting the loudest against The Donald. Why side with those obvious products of the feminization of society?

You write as if Trump never said anything wise. But there are a couple of things I find impressive. First his strong efforts to stress he wants to get along with Russia in a times where everyone tries to do exactly the opposite. All the while when hearing Russia commenting on foreign policy for the last years, they sound to me like the only rational voice left amongst the big nations. And to want to approach a rational partner is a good thing. Further I personally like his appointment of Pruitt over EPA and generally his scepticism over man-made global warming. In my view, environmental activist and doomsday preaching has gone way too far. So far it has become a real danger (for energy prices, for development, for poverty, for lethal debt ceilings). Trump goes against the stream here and changes US policy already. And what's more? For a moment I hoped he'd put Tulsi Gabbard on State but although they seem to agree on a lot it became for now Rex Tillerson, who is perhaps not a bad pick but he also needs to go against the grain of a whole (rather delusional) State Department.

And all the Tweets, the gossip, the character traits of one guy, it just doesn't worry me that much although I cringe just as well. But all the focus on a skilled show man I find mostly old wife's gossips. And all those fears it will ruin or wreck the world: all void and meaningless. We've been there already too many times before.

Perhaps young Jup is right though and are you just talking like an older Aussie with a romantic out-of date view of the wider world where somewhat rational forces still organize everything. Or you refuse to believe that politics has become a show, a make belief, of a world which has already passed. All the clowns and narcissists we see now are perhaps just our own, Western, ideological mirror images? Anyway, just to make it clear, I don't support Trump the person but I do happen to believe he somehow has understood the world and its decline in places better than many in America right now. He does not have a good solution though but at least he's saying the truth: America is not great now. Which is exactly the main reason there was a hissy fit at Liberal side and they started campaigning "America is already great". Trump was certainly right here, his opponents dead wrong and in denial.
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