Enlightenment

[Pam Seeback]

In the bliss thread started by Kunga I asked her if she was interested in laying aside spiritual doctrine and addressing our individual reasoned definitions of enlightenment. Her answer? Start a new thread, so here it is.

I reason that the only peace of mind a person can have is if their words and actions are free of uncertainty, if what they say and do is actually what they mean to say and do. In other words, they actualize their spirit conscience, and if asked, can give reasons why they actualized (caused) this effect and not that effect.

In a nutshell:

Darkness = uncertainty. Light = certainty.

Therefore, enLIGHTenment to me is certainty.

[Kunga]

Darkness = uncertainty. Light = certainty.

Therefore, enLIGHTenment to me is certainty.

And you can thank the Darkness for the Light :)

[Kunga]

Enlightenment to me, is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient.

[Jehu]

For me, enlightenment is the realization of one's true nature as opposed to how we conventionally view ourselves and our place in the world. In other words, enlightenment is the complementary opposite of ignorance.

[Dennis Mahar]

I bet ya' 20 bucks the next post and the one after and so on describes form.
a winning formula.
mention will be concerning causes/conditions.

uncanny.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Open minds and open windows start with unlearning and uncertainty. How else to arrive at unboundness?

Certainty is certainly part of the path, like a rock from where one can leap into the darkness of unknowns. The power of faith.

The Son of Man has no place to lay his head.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

And enlightenment, like any notion of "bliss" or "end of suffering" just means a lack of darkness, heaviness, anger or spite operating deep below.

This lightness is also space. Space which will breed intelligence, reason, justness, truth and insight.
And what could be called peace and tranquility. If it needs a name but it's not the normal calm.

It's not about adding anything. What you think you have, feel or are is to fall away. That's the end of ignorance, all there's to it.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

O and did I mention causes/conditions? :-)

[Dennis Mahar]

You owe me 20 bucks ;)

chuck in another 50 for the demonstration of omniscience.

[Pam Seeback]

And enlightenment, like any notion of "bliss" or "end of suffering" just means a lack of darkness, heaviness, anger or spite operating deep below.

It is that deep below that has to be named and then tamed, as it contains the continuum of our animal nature, the principles of lust and fear. The key is not to deny its existence, to accept it as a part of the evolution of consciousness.

This lightness is also space. Space which will breed intelligence, reason, justness, truth and insight.
And what could be called peace and tranquility. If it needs a name but it's not the normal calm.

I agree that the space that opens up as the animal nature is being named and tamed is one of intelligence, reason, justness, truth and insight, but what is important to realize is that all of these things of conscience are eternally present in seed form in the Godhead or Existence, just as are the things of animal nature. Everything has its season, everything has its reason in the movement from the darkness into the light. What this means is that the Son of Man cannot find a place to rest his head because he is bound by the concept seeds currently claiming his attention all of which eventually must be unbound to make room for the coming of seeds not yet known. This is where uncertainty and certainty play out their dance. One is certain of giving their whole mind to the thought seeds currently in their conscience view, for example, justness, but is not certain that whatever seeds are currently holding their attention are the last seeds of Existence to be revealed (the falling away of heaven and earth). Upon which time the Son of Man passes away and becomes the Son of God.

It's not about adding anything. What you think you have, feel or are is to fall away. That's the end of ignorance, all there's to it.

It's all in the Godhead, waiting for its season, for its reason.

[Pam Seeback]

Enlightenment to me, is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient.

Will you flesh out these concepts a bit so we can see your vision?

[Kunga]

When everything is known (Omniscent),present everywhere (Omnipresent), and can do anything (Omnipotent)...it has to be Enlightened.

The Infinite or Absolute is everything, if it is everything, it knows everything,does everything,is everywhere.
If it is Infinite and Absolute, it can also be nowhere, do nothing, know nothing.

So.. Omniscent knowledge is all and nothing.
Omnipresence is everywhere and nowhere.
Omnipotent does everything and nothing.

If all is a dream, illusion, bubble, you can imagine anything you want !

The Natural State is our original face.
No pimples.

The Natural State is Enlightenment.
Its Everywhere/Nowhere/Everything/Nothing

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The Infinite or Absolute is everything, if it is everything, it knows everything,does everything,is everywhere.

Which is why you can't completely know or experience it any more than everybody is already doing since knowledge slices by definition.

If all is a dream, illusion, bubble, you can imagine anything you want !

Nothing really changes by calling it a dream. And even people's imagination would be rather limited and confined to so many factors at play.

[Kunga]

Which is why you can't completely know or experience it any more than everybody is already doing

That's why I didn't say "I" was Enlightened !
That's why I didn't make reference to it as a person.

When Buddha realized Enlightenment, he was no longer a human.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

And enlightenment, like any notion of "bliss" or "end of suffering" just means a lack of darkness, heaviness, anger or spite operating deep below.

It is that deep below that has to be named and then tamed, as it contains the continuum of our animal nature, the principles of lust and fear. The key is not to deny its existence, to accept it as a part of the evolution of consciousness.

Not even animal nature. Our depth has been created by what appears to be some remarkable feature of the evolving human brain. What lurks there fuels our world like a secret nuclear engine. Some damaged and twisted instincts without any inkling left what would constitute "natural". And conversion to "solar power" might become quite interruptive and futuristic. It certainly remains a possibility.

What this means is that the Son of Man cannot find a place to rest his head because he is bound by the concept seeds currently claiming his attention all of which eventually must be unbound to make room for the coming of seeds not yet known. ... Upon which time the Son of Man passes away and becomes the Son of God.

No distinction is needed here between sons. There is no liberation if there's anything left to rest upon. And in truth we're already resting on nothing.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

That's why I didn't make reference to it as a person.

Well you did say "it" knows, does, and is all things or nothing. The act of knowing, doing and being is person-hood.

When Buddha realized Enlightenment, he was no longer a human.

This claim only makes sense if you met him before and after :-)

[Kunga]

The act of knowing, doing and being is person-hood.

Was the heart trained to beat ? Yet it knows how, it's doing it, in it's beingness :)

This claim only makes sense if you met him before and after :-)

No. When you know what Enlightenment is, then you can understand that statement I made: "When Buddha realized Enlightenment, he was no longer a human."
It means to transcend both being and non-being.

A person does not become Enlightened, Enlightenment already IS. When you realize what Enlightenment IS, you know it no longer is "you" that is Enlightened.

The Tao is an example also.
Buddha is The Tao.
The physical human that everyone saw (Siddhartha Gautama), was the illusion.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The act of knowing, doing and being is person-hood.

Was the heart trained to beat ? Yet it knows how, it's doing it, in it's beingness :)

You know that's meaningless as we can say that of nearly everything doing something. You're drowning out thought with that old trick! Or are you saying "enlightenment" is a thing then with properties, actions, existing somewhere? Probably not. So better not talk about it that way then?

What you must learn is: this language matters. You have to put thought into it. Otherwise why bother at all? Just let it go. There are more fun things to do.

A person does not become Enlightened, Enlightenment already IS. When you realize what Enlightenment IS, you know it no longer is "you" that is Enlightened.

But you're still saying you're enlightened (you realize, you know) but in such a way of having no responsibility for the statement. Do you think it's an honest way to talk about it?

The physical human that everyone saw (Siddhartha Gautama), was the illusion.

The nice thing from an illusion or "Tao" is that anyone can make such stuff up and pretend to know something about it. Like seeing shapes in the clouds. Everyone is right. Right? Was Siddartha's supposed realization and knowledge illusion too?

[Kunga]

You know that's meaningless as we can say that of nearly everything doing something. You're drowning out thought with that old trick! Or are you saying "enlightenment" is a thing then with properties, actions, existing somewhere? Probably not. So better not talk about it that way then?

Diebert, I was giving you an example that something can know how to do something, without being a person, I am not trying to trick you....get a grip.

But you're still saying you're enlightened (you realize, you know) but in such a way of having no responsibility for the statement. Do you think it's an honest way to talk about it?

No. No one can be Enlightened. We are illusions. Can a illusion be Enlightened ? Realizing that is Enlightenment ? There is much more to Enlightenment than knowing what it is. I don't have to be a Genius to recognize a Genius.

[Kunga]

Everything is an illusion because it does not inherently exist. Phenomena is interdependent. Doesn't exist inherently.
A tree or person didn't just pop into existence without a cause. But there is one thing that is causeless, it has no begining or end.
Some call it The Tao, some call it God. Some call it The Infinite. Some call it The Absolute...

[Leyla Shen]

Sounds like self-hypnosis to me.

[Dennis Mahar]

Sounds like self-hypnosis to me.

Looks like shen's perennial punch and judy show.
conditional.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I was giving you an example that something can know how to do something, without being a person, I am not trying to trick you....

You were using a personification, a "literary device in which human attributes and qualities are given to nonhuman or inanimate objects". But all I''m saying it that this device makes look enlightenment like a thing. It's better to not personalize it as you claim you are trying while still making it all too personal with every sentence you craft.

No. No one can be Enlightened. We are illusions. Can a illusion be Enlightened ? Realizing that is Enlightenment ? There is much more to Enlightenment than knowing what it is.

But you know something others are not knowing. Take ownership of your understanding, your realization on how to be illusive or however you want to call it. Your name is signing these posts and you claim that only those who "know what Enlightenment is" can understand your statement(s). But because you don't want to be challenged or tested, because you need these concepts and feelings to hide, they are moved behind a wall called "illusion" and "there's much more to it". But I call it dishonesty: the inability to look deeper into things and refusing to see that inability. Ignorance in a nut shell.

[Pam Seeback]

Everything is an illusion because it does not inherently exist. Phenomena is interdependent. Doesn't exist inherently.
A tree or person didn't just pop into existence without a cause. But there is one thing that is causeless, it has no begining or end.
Some call it The Tao, some call it God. Some call it The Infinite. Some call it The Absolute...

In light of what you have said above, how would you interpret this saying of the Buddha regarding the highest attainment of the formless jhanas:

"Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure."

[Pam Seeback]

Not even animal nature. Our depth has been created by what appears to be some remarkable feature of the evolving human brain. What lurks there fuels our world like a secret nuclear engine. Some damaged and twisted instincts without any inkling left what would constitute "natural". And conversion to "solar power" might become quite interruptive and futuristic. It certainly remains a possibility.

I assume by a lurking "remarkable feature" of fuel you are referring to causes and conditions that shall forever allude our conscious understandings, Freud's "id"?

Quote:
What this means is that the Son of Man cannot find a place to rest his head because he is bound by the concept seeds currently claiming his attention all of which eventually must be unbound to make room for the coming of seeds not yet known. ... Upon which time the Son of Man passes away and becomes the Son of God.

No distinction is needed here between sons. There is no liberation if there's anything left to rest upon. And in truth we're already resting on nothing.

In truth, we are resting in nothing in the sense that we cannot grasp a thing and hold it or examine it with our senses, it is empty of our wishes and expectations, but this nothing is not literally nothing in the sense of being absent of existence or the spirit-of-the-thing. Something exists upon which we rest, something invisible and intangible (until of course, it becomes visible and tangible).

We are unbound in the sense of being without tether to any one actuality-of-a-thing, but we are bound by virtue of our Sonship to our rest, so that what is hidden will be revealed. In other words, we can be liberated of our search for THE truth, but we can never be liberated from the activity of truth. Those who wish for annihilation are doing just that, to literally be cut loose - permanently liberated - from existence and its ways.