Can people change?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

We had one, maybe two, posts in which Dennis appeared. The prose was uniquely different. A person was talking about a person. Now, it seems, we go back to the 'bad-Buddhist-poetry' manner of communication.

This bizarro-poetry is little more (as I am able to see and discern) than theological mumbo-jumbo. Well, theological without, obviously, the 'theo'! It is little more than blather, it has no weight or value, and there is certainly in it nothing that could 'transform' the individual, except into the non-existant 'ghost' to which I have referred.

Ideas have consequences. They have a way to have their way with us.

I suggest, again, that when one carefully and 'inquiringly' examines the core doctrines of those who carry on this philosophical farse, you discover at the core an error...a vacuity. It is a dressing-up, a camouflage, a game of appearances. It is a destructive game.

WHAT MORE CAN ONE SAY?!
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Tomas
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Tomas »

Alexis Jacobi wrote:We had one, maybe two, posts in which Dennis appeared. The prose was uniquely different. A person was talking about a person. Now, it seems, we go back to the 'bad-Buddhist-poetry' manner of communication.

This bizarro-poetry is little more (as I am able to see and discern) than theological mumbo-jumbo. Well, theological without, obviously, the 'theo'! It is little more than blather, it has no weight or value, and there is certainly in it nothing that could 'transform' the individual, except into the non-existant 'ghost' to which I have referred.

Ideas have consequences. They have a way to have their way with us.

I suggest, again, that when one carefully and 'inquiringly' examines the core doctrines of those who carry on this philosophical farse, you discover at the core an error...a vacuity. It is a dressing-up, a camouflage, a game of appearances. It is a destructive game.

WHAT MORE CAN ONE SAY?!
I agree (but not quite 100%) he's got some sort of 'dis-order' going on be it past drug use, alcohol perhaps even the baddest of all prescription psychiatric drugs.

However the Beatnik-poetry thing is serious turnoff. Pure escape with no (zero) consequences.
Don't run to your death
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

apparent duality is one.
that's what gets the radical transformation.
That does not explain what the radical transformation is. The only radical transformation I can see that is possible once one has awakened to the non-duality of unconditioned and conditioned awareness is to reconcile the latter to the former. In other words, actively and consciously participate in the ending of one's suffering of their awareness of being caught between two worlds.
Transformation doesn't grow on trees,
it happens in a conversation.
conversations are about enrolling in a viewpoint,

not the same/not different,
gets the situation handled.
ethics gets fixed up,
politics gets fixed up.

all people get to live in peace.
it's only a possibility.
Dennis, it would appear that you haven't taken your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, unless your definition of living in peace is the end of what we know as 'human being.' [Which is, as you probably have concluded, is my definition of peace]. Once collective humanity discovers the magic trick of recycling conditions, of which birth is one, they will cease reproducing, will they not? Why would someone consciously continue to do something that they have concluded is the cause of their suffering? The truism "you can't unring a bell" comes to mind. Once awakened, try as you might, you cannot go back to sleep.

Which means its not that ethics get fixed up or politics gets fixed up, but that they cease to have any meaning, they cease to attract, and when that happens, well, the end is nigh.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Pure escape with no (zero) consequences.
A zero is fraught with nothingness, a nothing that becomes something,
says: 'hello you! I know you!'
but then splits up,
freaks out,
resolves itself in same/different
war/peace
kissy missy touchy feely
the situation gets fixed up right there.

transformation doesn't grow on a tree (silly rabbit-blanket)
a tree has no inherency,
is not the same/not different,
from what it isn't/will be/was
not anything, not nothing
not not
not a knot neither
what it is I can't say
maybe you can say it better?
plink? plunk? plank? (wank?)
what it isn't---no, rather not say
it's only a possibility
save it for another day.

Tim's knocking I must duck away.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

What I was trying to prove was that enrollment happens in a conversation.
I told about me and Tim.
Alex got enrolled.
Something about that got Alex enrolled.

Alex then got unenrolled in the conversation with the idea that I abandoned Tim.

That there's a possibility for enrollment in a conversation.

enrollment is a condition.


somewhere in the experience of me and Tim.
Alex saw a ROLE that is Alex's possibility for Alex.
Alex became unenrolled in the conversation when the possibility of Dennis abandoning Tim showed up.
It's all about Alex.

Alex is unenrolled in the thinking but is enrolled in the healing.

Alex and I share 'enrolled in the possibility of healing'.


This stuff is very fuckin' deep.
give it your best.

In the conversation I had with Tim,
I showed Tim's possibility for Tim to Tim when Tim was in breakdown mode or overwhelmed by conditions.
Tim is now transformed in his conditions.
Not overwhelmed.

Tim feels fantastic now.
He wants to buddy up Dennis which involves going to the pub, getting pissed, get into a fight or two...whatever blokes with shaven heads and tattoos do.
All of that outside Dennis' ken.

It's not Dennis who abandonded Tim.
It's Tim who abandons Dennis and Dennis' conversation.
Tim wants Dennis in Tim's conversation.

Tim is not in breakdown now but in 6 months time conditions will overwhelm Tim again probably.
Last edited by Dennis Mahar on Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

You can't unring a bell, Dennis.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You can't unring a bell, Dennis.
Is that a condition?
I can undo that in 2 seconds flat.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

However the Beatnik-poetry thing is serious turnoff
I'll write it up as I please.
Do I have to kowtow to your preferences?
I'm free.
You're not.
You've got a set of rules others must fit into.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Funny, you mention Tim
and here I've got a Jim
brother of Slim
who pondered herency
until inherency made a mess of him.

Unring the bell you devilish Aussie
but don't go with Tim and get all sloshy
and by that I mean the Tim
who reminds me of my Jim
Brother of Slim.

If you were a Greek of old
You wouldn't have t' be told
That your baldy Tim with his tattoos a 'plenty
A visiting god might be.

Alex you've driven mad
and that wouldn't be so bad
Except that you've reduced yourself to a menace
L'il Dennis.
Last edited by Alexis Jacobi on Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Pam,
I'm talking about the radical transformation of human being in his conditions.
That human being has possibilities.
Is not a fixed condition.
Most people are 'resigned' in their conditions.
overwhelmed in their conditions

putting up with it
comfortably numb
leading lives of quiet desparation
self-medicating
waiting for 'one fine day'
when the ship comes in
waiting for Jesus to turn up
looking for where the grass is greener

in the conditions in that way

hardly ever experiencing the incredible lightness of being for instance, although most people
do report at least once in their life getting a wonderful taste of it.


human being ends when it ends,
in the meantime,
stepping lightly is possible.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

That your baldy Tim with his tattoos a 'plenty
A visiting god might be.
Of course he is.
Only, that when I was visiting a friend in hospital on Friday at the same time he was visiting his father at the same hospital,
and we were out in the carpark,
where you go to have a cigarette,
and he asked me for a light,
and a conversation happened.

He was a crestfallen God.
Now he's not.
It's not Greek to me.

up ya' nose with a rubber hose.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

  • Lo! in that house of misery
    It's Dennis with a cig I see
    Pass through the glimmering gloom,
    And flit from room to room.
That was a [modified version] of a Longfellow poem about Florence Nightengale...

Well, we have had a good run. At the very least it was interesting, or in any case I was interesting. But it is time---please, please don't be sad!---for me to offer a sincere adieu.

Until the next time.

I offer this rather mercurial tune. Confessions can be so marvellously complicitous! I am a lonesome hobo...
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Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Until the next time.
In that time try and sort yourself out.

For a long time you criticised me for lacking humanity.
I tell you an incident from my life where you praised me for showing humanity.
Then you inferred I abandoned Tim and criticised me for lacking humanity.
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Blair
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Blair »

Alex is the big lumbering sucking vagina that is the universe.

Thinks it's forever relevant.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

he's got abandonment issues.
his solution is to abandon everybody else.
to get in first,
so he doesn't get abandoned.
cheap trick.

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Re: Can people change?

Post by Bobo »

Dennis Mahar wrote:he's got abandonment issues.
his solution is to abandon everybody else.
to get in first,
so he doesn't get abandoned.
cheap trick.

mudslinger
a thinker and a thought do not exist separately and are found to be one and the same.
a subject and an object are not split,
a subject is its objects.

That's how it rolls.
If a thought is about something, we could say that there's a thinker, a thought and an object of which the thought is about. Would you still maintain that these does not exists separately and are to be one and the same?
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

There is no taster without something other than taste to be tasted.
There is no hearer without something other than sound to be heard.
There is no toucher without something other than touch to be touched.
There is no smeller without something other than smell to be smelled.
There is no seer without something other than seeing to be seen.
There is no thinker without something other than thought to be thought.

Can't see a boundary.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Here's another incident.

I knew a girl who understood the possibility of transforming her objects.
She was watching on a newscast how refugees of the war in Kosovo were being herded into holding camps at the border of a neighbouring country.The rain was teeming down, the ground was slush, the cold was intense.
The refugees stressed, suffering badly.
An Australian journalist interviewed a group of them who said they had relatives in Australia and were desparate to contact them.
She spent the next 5 days on the phone, pleading, begging, imploring Government officials and Red Cross officials to do something about getting communication equipment in there.
She lived on coffee, cigarettes and Pinky's Pizza and barely slept.
Eventually she broke through complacency and got to the highest ranks and got them enrolled in her plan.
On the 5th day a dozen satellite phones were cleared to be dropped into that place.
The girl was totally stuffed and spent the next week in bed.

Govt officials loved her derring-do and offered her a job in Canberra.

It was only a conversation about transforming conditions,
about enrolling who needed to be enrolled.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Bobo »

Dennis Mahar wrote:There is no thinker without something other than thought to be thought.

Can't see a boundary.
I see. <There is no thinker without something other><than thought to be thought.>
and <There is no thinker><without something other than thought><to be thought.>

Let's say that our thinker is DM and the thought is that TA has abandonment issues.
Does TA has abandonment issues because DM thinks it, or independently of what DM thinks of it?
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

If a question is a request for information.

There is no requester without something other than a request to be requested.

There is no designator without something other than a designation to designate.

web of associations and references.
dependant origination.
wheel keeps turning.

rollin' on a river,
chug, chug.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:If a question is a request for information.

There is no requester without something other than a request to be requested.

There is no designator without something other than a designation to designate.

web of associations and references.
dependant origination.
wheel keeps turning.
When I am not awake
I am my web of associations and references
I am my wheel
Of dependent origination
I am my rollin' river
I am human being.

When I am awake
I am aware of my web of associations and references
I am aware of my wheel
Of dependent origination
I am aware of my rollin' river
I am aware of my humanism.
And being aware of these repeating [turning] things
I am aware I am the One who started the wheel turning
As I am aware I am the One who keeps the wheel turning
As I am aware I am the One who stops the wheel from turning.

I and the conditioned Lord God of the Unconditioned Father and the Awakened Christ who reconciles the two, are One.

You spoke of the woman who transformed her objects and got done what she believed needed to be done. Whether she was conscious of it or not, she helped keep the wheel of dependent origination turning, she helped keep “human being” turning.

You mentioned the waiting of some for Jesus to come and end “human being.” I see no difference between the religious waiting ones and those of a secular mentality who are waiting for “nature” to end its own turning. Either the principle of the thinker and the thought being united applies across the board, or it does not. And if it does not, then A ceases being equal to A. The turning of the wheel = the thinker thinking of its turning. The stopping of the turning of the wheel = the thinker thinking of its stopping.
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Wheel turns.
don't sweat the small stuff.

All aboard!
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Thoughts don't go around thoughting by themselves.
They need a thinker and an object.

Thinkers don't go around without an object and a thought.

Objects don't go around without a thinker and a thought.

Thoughts are labelling.
Objects are labelled.
Thinkers label.

Where do labels come from?

I heard it through the grapevine. (web).
Pam Seeback
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Thoughts don't go around thoughting by themselves.
They need a thinker and an object.

Thinkers don't go around without an object and a thought.

Objects don't go around without a thinker and a thought.

Thoughts are labelling.
Objects are labelled.
Thinkers label.

Where do labels come from?

I heard it through the grapevine. (web).
Thinkers are not always thinking.

Objects are not always being labeled.

"Be still and know I am God."
Dennis Mahar
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Re: Can people change?

Post by Dennis Mahar »

"Be still and know I am God."
cliche.

machine doesn't have an off switch till death.

there is no human without something other than human to be human.

eyesight, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, intelligibility,

I got it through the grapevine (web)

It's insane to consider myself, anyone else or anything to be self-established, existing independently, running under its own steam.

Boom boom da da dada
Bompa bomp doo da dada

Now listen,
who is steppin' out,
I'm gonna turn around,
I'm gonna turn around twice,
and we'll do the Eagle Rock.

give me a concept and we'll do the Eagle Rock.
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