Have we got Buddhism right?

[vinasp]

Hi Kevin,
Sorry to be a troublemaker but I think your view of Buddhism is wrong, try thinking more along the lines of Plato's Noble Lie. With some being initiated into the secret that the lie is a lie, and others not. Setting up an inner circle and therefore "insiders" and "outsiders". You seem not to have understood the "game" that is being played. Kind regards, Vincent.

[Ataraxia]

Hi Kevin,
Sorry to be a troublemaker but I think your view of Buddhism is wrong, try thinking more along the lines of Plato's Noble Lie. With some being initiated into the secret that the lie is a lie, and others not. Setting up an inner circle and therefore "insiders" and "outsiders". You seem not to have understood the "game" that is being played. Kind regards, Vincent.

I see this argument propounded quite often by a few Gnostic, Theosophist and Hermetic people I cyber-know. As if there is some secret knowledge, and if one can only find the right guru/teacher then all will be revealed; as if there is one true knowledge 'out there' but until you jump through various hoops you wont be availed of it.

To me this is exactly the wrong way to go about the getting of wisdom, enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it. To be 'told' is not to get it at all.

Mystery religions are at least as old as the Mycenaens. On deeper investigation I see no reason to believe they ultimately impart much wisdom at all; only ritual and cult.

[vinasp]

Hi ataraxia,
You say this is not new and that some of your friends have tried to convince you of it's truth. It seems their arguments have not persuaded you. I was actually speaking of Theravada Buddhism although other schools may have a similar set-up. I have long suspected that there was something about Theravada which was eluding us, but suspicion is one thing, being able to demonstrate it convincingly is quite another. Some of what you say I agree with, perhaps I should have made it clear in my first post that I was talking about Theravada. You are surely not saying that no follower of Theravada has ever become enlightened?

[Ataraxia]

Hi ataraxia,
You are surely not saying that no follower of Theravada has ever become enlightened?

Well I wonder if these hypothetical people didn't become enlightened despite following a particular religion rather than because of it.That is not to say there are no useful concepts in Theravada, or for that matter Gnosticism, Christianity or even Islam.

I'm not a big fan of the term enlightement personally, or for that matter genius - they seem to me notoriously slippery labels. Nevertheless, AFAICT becoming enlightened doesn't in fact entail following any particular doctrine religiously, but is more the removal of current delusions - "negation", so to speak. It seems to me by embracing the teachings of Theravada (for instance)literally one is just replacing one set of delusions with a new set.

I think that is the underlying strength of what Kevin has to say on thinking. It is not "follow me" or "follow a particular doctrine" it is follow your own reasoning: " and here are a couple of useful tools".

Anyway, welcome to the forum. I 'm probably not the right person to debate what is 'true Buddhism' with you. :)

[vinasp]

Hi ataraxia,
The points you make are very good, and you are almost spot-on with what you say about progress being the removal of delusions. If half the things which the Buddha said were fibs then those who think that everything he said is true, are at a dis-advantage. If they discover for themselves or are helped to realize this then some important delusions have been removed. This is progress on the path although much more work still needs to be done.
What Kevin says is true but to do it all oneself must be even more difficult. Anyone that good would not have needed the Buddhas teachings even at the time when Gotama was alive.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

As if there is some secret knowledge, and if one can only find the right guru/teacher then all will be revealed; as if there is one true knowledge 'out there' but until you jump through various hoops you wont be availed of it.

That seems to be the formula, and you just keep jumping through hoops until you say "screw the damn hoops, I get it now."

progress being the removal of delusions. If half the things which the Buddha said were fibs then those who think that everything he said is true, are at a dis-advantage. If they discover for themselves or are helped to realize this then some important delusions have been removed.

Each hoop is a delusion.

The critical endpoint is whether the person truly has removed all delusions or if the person has added the delusion of believing that he is now without delusion.

[Steven Coyle]

The ironic thing I suppose is that the foundation of wisdom is delusion itself. So when one becomes enlightened and the hidden knowledge that all is empty of self nature appears crystal clear - all that is left is delusion as dynamics to wield, with unperturbed jenga like freedom.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,
Thank's to all who responded. Very good replies considering the cryptic nature of my first post. It seems that my interpretation of Theravada differs from Kevin's, but I am not yet clear how far apart we are. We might agree on eighty percent and differ on twenty percent.
The main difference so far seems to be on rebirth. All the texts which I would regard as teaching literal rebirth, Kevin would regard as metaphorical. I am not sure how one would resolve an issue of this sort. My own interpretation is work-in-progress and not yet completed. Does Kevin have any finished work that you could refer me to. Kind regards, Vincent.

[Carl G]

Does Kevin have any finished work that you could refer me to.

Yes, his online manuscript, Poison for the Heart.

[divine focus]

That seems to be the formula, and you just keep jumping through hoops until you say "screw the damn hoops, I get it now."

progress being the removal of delusions. If half the things which the Buddha said were fibs then those who think that everything he said is true, are at a dis-advantage. If they discover for themselves or are helped to realize this then some important delusions have been removed.

Each hoop is a delusion.

Each hoop, one dimension wider, is actually a spiral stair.

The stair becomes the eternal path.

[JonathanDavies]

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

--Guatama Buddha


MY COMMENTARY:

I find this quote attributed to the Buddha to be very important and timely in this day and age. From my studies I have learned that when the Buddha originally lived and taught there was no written language. So what we have attributed to the Buddha is what his followers wrote about him long after his death. At least this is what I learned from a Buddhist forum.

The point is that this quote of the Buddha should most definitely be applied to all SUPPOSED quotes attributed to the Buddha because we have no way of knowing who has tampered with what the Buddha originally said. Or what ANY great spiritual master actually said thousands of years ago.

As I see it, in this quote the Buddha is strongly advocating ‘critical thinking’. Considering that during his life, it is reported that, the Buddha originally went to all the greatest gurus India had to offer, learned the best of all they knew then left when they could teach him nothing further. Considering the nature of idol worship in India, it stands to reason that the Buddha deliberately rejected all manners of God worship. He was determined to either discover a better way or die of fasting when he was given the insight of ‘the middle-way path’ to enlightenment.

Buddha essentially taught that if you want to be enlightened no God is going to do your work for you and you are wasting your time by praying to him. YOU have to make YOUR own efforts and claim YOUR OWN personal victories, period!

So here we are thousands of years later with many sects of Buddhism filled with lazy people who want their Buddhist leaders to do their work to become “enlightened” for them. Such is the way of religion. They tend to cater to human laziness and the desire to have others do your spiritual work for you while they sit on their fat asses paying their way to ‘enlightenment’ with 10% of their income.

This being the case I say the above quote of the Buddha should be fiercely considered when investigating into, what most probably is, the desecration of much of what the Buddha originally taught. It’s obvious that there are Buddhist sects now that condone the eating of meat, which is something totally against what the Buddha reportedly taught. From my studies, it would seem that the MINIMUM REQUIREMENT for being a true Buddhist is NOT TO EAT MEAT. Obviously, those who are making a lot of money through a Buddhist sect that teaches eating meat is okay will, most definitely, disagree with me.

So I find this particular quote of the Buddha to be very “enlightening” indeed. The Buddha advocated critical thinking; which just so happens to be the bane of what mainstream organized religions and the corporate Illuminati want us to do. They want us to accept their created religious and atheistic scientific view at face value. This is the core of goal of their insidious religious and scientific brainwashing.

Consider what would have happened to you in school if you stood up and boldly told your science teacher: “You are teaching us the THEORY of evolution as fact. Why should I blindly believe your evidence? It is not proof. I don’t see how you are any different from organized religions. You expect us to blindly believe you on what could very well be manipulated evidence!”

C’mon. If you dared to boldly confront your science teacher in this critical thinking manner YOU FAIL!! And you would most definitely be permanently labeled a disruptive influence to their covert brainwashing.

And brainwashing it indeed is! A brainwashing that most, if not all, of you suckers have fallen for hook, line & sinker! I say you wouldn’t know a true genius even if he posting in your forum of the covertly brainwashed. True geniuses are usually only recognized as so…after they are dead

The truth is valuable to the wise and an offense to the covertly brainwashed to accept presented evidence at face value. It’s a fact!

[yana]

Enlightenment is true and I have experienced it.You don't have to believe it. Now, Angels and Demons that is a whole different story. Simply think that all that exists have always existed. We are sentient beings trapped in samsara. Time isn't really real. And karma is important to Buddha.